First off, to everyone, Ive missed you all. I put myself on a little hiatus (sp?) because, I found myself getting a bit swept up with all the drama, and needed a breather, and had finals. Clarknelly~you were mostly right, I was getting more involved than I should have, and was too caught up to be smart instead of defensive. That said....
Anyways, here's my question. I was driving to the base the other day, and I thought I'd take a different route, see if it were shorter. I'm going down this road about three miles from my road, and I see a plywood sign, with 'puppies for sale' written on it in red paint. So, I slow a bit, and crane my head, and see a..maybe, 100 by 100 foot fenced in area with rows and columns of cage type things, but I can't see in them at all. Looks almost like a mink farm, maybe? Hard to explain.
Ok, so, HERE's my question finally, haha. Should I pose as an interested buyer and go check it out? Then what? If it's nasty and puppymillish do I call the police? Can they do anything? Is it just animal cruelty laws that apply or are there any actual laws against breeding that many dogs? If not, there should be. I mean, if someone is breeding fifteen different breeds and keeping them all in cages, that are relatively dry and relatively cleaned, and if they have food, I still think it should be illegal. Limited in some way. I don't know. I'm rambling. So, first step should be what? I could be completely wrong, that's why I'm thinking Id like to check it out before calling anyone, of course. Thanks :)
do you have any big friends ? or maybe a cop who is a friend who could go with you but not as a cop ? these people get really nasty when you pretend with them. i would be careful. but i think i would do it if i had a cop friend to come with me.
What state are you in? Midwestern states, PA, and the southern states (excluding FL) have some of the weakest cruelty laws around- and there's not likely to be a darned thing you can do if they're meeting the very *minimal* requirements the USDA sets for commercial breeders- if she's indeed licensed with them.
And millers are notoriously NASTY people, of course- people who care so little about animal life, the people they rip off, and the people they leave broken hearted- don't give a flying flip about YOU.
Give me a state, I'll tell you if you've got any hope. :(
Ok, here's my opinion as a breeder-I do not raise my breeds this way as it is not practical or healthy for my breeds and I don't care for it. But that's my opinion.
Saying that however, sometimes what we perceive as illegal or what should be illegal isn't. The guidelines that are in place, granted they may not be what we'd all ideally like to see for raising puppies, are what has been decided by a team of Government Licensed vets. IF they are state licensed or USDA licensed and follow the guidelines and laws that pertain to them, they aren't legally doing anything wrong. If you find out or hear that there are problems, then you should report it to the authorities.
Many breeders will not take you into their kennel area to see puppies. If I have a litter that is in my nuersery that is not vaccinated, I allow no vistors in there. There is also a risk of bringing in a stranger to a kennel as many diseases can be transmitted, either unintentionally or intententially that cannot be vaccinated for. So don't expect to do undercover and be allowed to literally inspect the property. Also liability is a concern as well.
I have a great deal of concern for my dogs safety as well. If I find anyone just poking around snooping-you better bet that I will turn someone in for trespassing. Too many dogs are being stolen, either for illegal resale or 'rescued'. It may not be a safe idea to just take the law into your own hands in this case, as legally they may be clean in the terms of the law and the inspectors.
They may have several different breeds, but there is nothing illegal about that, that is a breeders choice. The illegal part is if they are selling improperly, not following regulations, or literally breaking cruelty laws. Unless your opinions are found to be accurate, they are just opinions and you can sure express them to the local government or higher.
The best thing you could do, is ask the authorities about the place as a concerned citizen and that as a taxpayer, you'd like to be sure that the laws, no matter how you feel about them, are being followed. It may turn up something, it may not.
I know you may feel helpless and angry after my post here, but I am trying to be as logical and honest as I can. Sometimes we all feel that are opinions should be the law, they just aren't. If I'd have my way all child molesters neutered and banned from living within 50 miles of a town if I had my way, but it's my opinion and if I want something done, I need to take it to the government-not into my own hands.
***Edited By: myshadow on 5/25/2005 10:14:30 PM*** Reason: oops
Long Dogs is right. If they cared about you, either as a neighbor or consumer and your opinion, it would be a wonderful place to visit where the dogs loved people and you could see they were we taken care of. I try to convey that when visitors come here and welcome them to our kennel, our home and our training area. Only off limits is our nursery when young are not vaccinated or mother is very nervous.
As everyone said......be VERY careful if you do go! Nasty is putting it mildly if they discover the true reason you are there! Never blow your cover! Sadly if this "person" runs a mill which sells to brokers /petshops then they are required to have a USDA Lic. The same USDA that monitors the meat we consume have very "flexible" regulations on mills. Basically in a nut shell the cage simply needs to be the length of the dog x 6 inches as a minimum, food, water & shelter. Unfortunately this is nothing illegal about mills! Grrrrrrr! If she has a sign advertising pups for sale & is only selling to the final buyer, then they are NOT required to have a USDA lic. In that case you need to call your local SPCA, Dept of agriculture, humane society etc & let them investigate. If it was me, I'd also place an add in the pet section of the paper to avoid this place if it turns out to be a dump! Pay for the add in cash anonymously....... :) Oh I didn't just say that......me bad! LOL! Good luck & let us know what happens! What ever you do be careful!
I can't wait to see the day they make mills illegal!! Wooo Whooooo!
Glad to see you back dook..I was wondering..I know you said you lived in GA..and then you mentioned the base..where abouts do you live..My hubby lived in Columbus by fort bening..are you closet to that...?
As for the puppy mill...I would report it and not go there..you dont knoiw what you will see for one thing..and you dont know what you could pick up on your shoes or clothing...and bring to others pets yours or others. I know you want to do the rith thing...but going will only have those horrable pic's ingraned in your brain for ever...Juet report and keep reporting it..Good luck to you...take care...
Hey guys, just got off work, have a few minutes before Dook's vet appointment (getting his yearly shots). Awesome advice, I appreciate it. Everyone has brought up points I haven't thought of, so my thanks for your input.
Yes, Georgia is where I live, and huron, I am stationed at Fort Gordon, in Augusta, and hello :)
I am saddened to hear that mills themselves aren't illegal. There should be some sort of cap on the number of breeds, number of litters per year, etc. Free country, people need to make money to live, etc, but this should not come at the expense of dogs. Or animals at all for that matter, excluding 'consumed' animals. And I understand those are just my opinions. That's basically why I posted. My opinion on what should be illegal and what is, are quite different, as some mentioned.
I am going to go there. Possibly today, depending on how long I can stay awake after Dook's appt. I will just say I am interested in buying a puppy, and get a feel for the place. See if they ask me any questions, find out about fees, application process, let me see any of the dogs ( i understand about the no seeing new pups thing, I wont hold that against them, thanks), etc. I don't just want to call, because a part of me feels like it would be a terrible thing for them if they ARE legit. I wouldnt want to wrongfully accuse someone. The other part says, if they truly love their animals and are breeding for the right reasons, they'd be nothing but understanding, and thankful that people DO care. Who knows. We'll see. But I will be getting there in the next few days, if not Monday of next week.
Could be those 'pen/kennel/cages' hold chickens for all I know !! Just wanted some advice before I checked it out, and I definitely am getting it here. Thanks much! I'll keep you updated on how it works out. And scout, unfortunately I don't have any cop friends, but I got lots of United States Marine Corps and Army friends, most of which just got back from Iraq, and they'll GLADLY come protect me! lol..I will do that definitely. Thanks for the tip!
~Amanda (not pj's friend Amanda...)
***Edited By: DooknDokkermom on 5/26/2005 6:53:42 AM*** Reason: lol...I typed iraW instead of iraQ..
Hi! I would act like a buyer. Just get a look at the condititions of the dogs and puppies. Here are some AKC rules. Male and Female dogs must be kept seperate. Here is a page that might help you. Go to http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/ReportingPupMill.htm . I hope this helps. Good luck! Good Bye!
Hi Amanda! Your welcome! I am glad to help shut down a puppy mill. If you have a small camera you could hide and take pictures it would help but if not just look at the condititions of the dogs and their living area. The page I gave has direct info on how to report the puppy mill. Let me know what happens. Thanks! Good luck! Good Bye Amanda!
PJ-I questioned the male/female thing and called the AKC, as I have a male and a female together. They say it may be a state reg, but not an AKC one. You can only have 1 male with females so that you don't have to play guessing games with who the father is, but I couldn't find that anywhere and finally called in to the AKC and they said it may be a state or USDA law, but not an AKC rule.
I know you all are upset about this, but what you need to consider it doing this the right way. Going in commando and storming the fort may only get you into further trouble. I know is is a long and very boring document, but you need to be versed on the USDA licensing and the state regs-if they even apply to this breeder. I have always said that education is a key and if you only go in on opinions, it only hurts your cause. If they are exempt from licensing and you don't have example cases and the dogs are fine, the best thing you can really do, is try to change local legislation, but you will face opposition. This is why PETA is losing so much creditabity, people are tired of their ways. I know our country seems to lack democracy, but this is really the best way and to prevent others and a fair way. i would hate to see any of you in jail, no matter how you are trying to help. I would rather see someone who is truly concerned, take a good solid approach to it so that you don't lose creditability. You have rights, animals have rights and so do breeders. I respect your opinion and it's hard not to feel disgusted, but unless there is something illegal, not immorally wrong, it may have to just be an opinion and you have the right to express it. We as people can try to change people's values-look at all the young girls that are missing now and found dead-but within a democracy, we have to be careful not to cross the criminal line, but look more toward becoming educated and willing to take steps to change the laws. You may find yourself in more trouble if you sneak in a camera, but you can be totally clean if you check to see if they are licensed and when the last inspector was there-that is your right as a taxpayer and concerned citizen as well as talking to animal control. Granted many here believe that the rules are a little laxed, but it is a positive step in the right direction. I don't condone bad treatment of animals at all, but I don't think a vigilante approach is the way either. Keep it legal, gain creditability and really approach this right if you want to deal with it properly.
***Edited By: myshadow on 5/26/2005 10:06:04 AM*** Reason: misspelling
No Problem PJ. I was just curious after you posted that since I hadn't heard it before. I cannot keep 2 female cairns together-or they'll fight, so they have a male roommate instead and no fighting at all. So I did want to be sure of that so I wasn't going to get into trouble the next time they visited.
Back from the vet, off to bed, I'm soo tired, but wanted to reply to a few things...
"I'll be negitive and say dogs are consumer animals...."
~~hehe that's why I said 'consumed' as in, 'eaten', like, cows, pigs, etc. :) Sorry for the poor wording. ------------------------------------------------
I know you all are upset about this, but what you need to consider it doing this the right way. Going in commando and storming the fort may only get you into further trouble. ......I have always said that education is a key and if you only go in on opinions, it only hurts your cause.......
~~ I understand that, that's why I was trying to get informed here, and I thank you for the information you've shared. I also didn't mean to imply I would be going in commando and storming the fort, I just wanted a tough boy with me in case they were 'nasty'. I have no intention of threatening them, calling them out, accusing them, etc. Just want to go 'be a buyer'.
......If they are exempt from licensing and you don't have example cases and the dogs are fine, the best thing you can really do, is try to change local legislation, but you will face opposition.......
~~ If the dogs are fine I will do nothing further on the matter. Nada. If the dogs are fine, healthy, and happy, so am I. I think it's SAD, yes, that this amount of over population is going on, however, it would take me quite some time to get involved in any sort of legislation over it, since I am one hundred percent ignorant on it all. But as far as these people, and this situation, if the dogs are fine, I'm leaving them alone.
...I know our country seems to lack democracy, but this is really the best way and to prevent others and a fair way. .......
~~ That's because we're a Republic, not a democracy :) I agree, and understand.
You may find yourself in more trouble if you sneak in a camera...
~~ I'm not doing that! hehe, no way, I don't have the courage. I can't be all sneaky sneaky like that. I can ask pertinent questions and show genuine interest in the dogs, while implying I intend to buy, but that's about as far as my ability to mislead/lie/omit info goes.
Thanks very much for your input, once again. It's appreciated.
I am so glad. I know we all want to do what is in our hearts, that's why we are compassionate people who come here-all ages and interests of pets. I totally respect your opinion and really do know how it tugs on your heart strings. I find myself biting my tongue so many times when I work with other breeders. Not because I want to put myself on a pedistal, but just how they think of breeding-more of a right, not a privedledge. It truly is a priveledge to be able to do something we are so passionate about and have those little hearts love us back everyday. That's the difference.
I really didn't think you'd go in commando, but some reading the posts may sure like to, and sometimes you can't blame them. There are so many young here that could truly make a difference, that I think keeping everyone fairly educated and providing resources is the best key to ensure responsible breeding and dog ownership.
Keep us posted on your research and I wish you the best! PS You are right to take someone along, you never know these days. I have a family member here with me when i have visitors with my dogs too. You never know anymore.
***Edited By: myshadow on 5/26/2005 11:20:09 AM*** Reason: add