Ok it seems that alot of you all don't know the full story...This client wanted a black female and i didn't have any, so i referred him to another breeder where i was also getting a puppy. So these pups are litter mates...His bit his daughter twice and b/c mine was not well socialized, and a bit agressive, I assumed (wrongly so) that his puppy bit out of aggression.. He did not want to rehome the puppy becasue he paid 600 for it and then 150 for the ear crop. I told him the money should be second to his child's safety and that I would give him a pup from my next litter so he wouldn't be out anything. Well he did find a buyer for the aggressive pup, and sold her for 600.00, this is the 150 he is out, only for the ear crop. When we were discussing the new puppy from my new litter, he mentioned that "this time I'm not going to let my daughters manhandle this puppy, I'll keep a closer eye on them" This is what makes me not want to give him the new pup. And you didn't ask, but my older puppy is coming along nicely, a bit nervous around strangers, but is being socialized a lot.And these are Dobermans we're talking about.. Thanks for your advice. I will probably suck it up and give him this pup, and then cut ties with him.
Sorry, I would not give him a pup. A mistreated doberman can be a dangerous thing. You do know that there is the potential that his kid will man handle that pup or YOURS and if it ends up biting his kid, that will reflect on you and your breeding. Whether it has anything to do with it or not, doesn't matter. I would not give them a pup of mine. You are only setting your pup up to fail and it will probably end up getting hurt or killed as a result.
I have pits and my 3 boys play rough with them and they have never had aggresion issues. I'm not a expert on dobes and I dont know your client personally but if he couldnt controll the 1st puppy what makes you think he wont ruin the one your giving him too? You should make a contract with him and dont cut ties so that you can have an option to get your pup back at No cost if he decides thats not the breed for him. Your puppy shouldnt have to suffer because you told him you would give him one for free. Though I am glad you are sticking by your word and giving him a puppy.
Sorry, I am still standing by what I say, his kid 'man handling' that dog, that is a dealbreaker. I would reimburse him for the pen and keep my pups safe. Your 'word' to him means NOTHING to that pup. Sometimes you have to make hard decisions, I have had alot of people interested in Koda, I have turned down alot who had really good homes, just not for him. Your responsibility lies NOT with that man or his kids, but in the placement of your puppies. It is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY that those pups get placed in EXCELLENT homes, and if that means breaking a promise or a word in the best interest of the pup, then so be it!! I may have not been the best breeder as far as standards are concerned but those pups interest always took presidence over a promise or another persons feelings. I have probably pissed alot of people off by telling them no, but I have never placed a dog in a home where I was not ONE HUNDRED PERCENT satisfied that they would get treated excellent.
Do what you will but remember that the pups best interest should over ride anything else.
Ok now that I know the story lol! I guess I would talk to him about your concern. Tell him you know I thought that maybe the dog was like that because mine was, but then you made a comment about the pup being man handled by your child. I just worry because I don't want this puppy to be man handled. Maybe your child is to young right now. Maybe when she gets older you can come and get a puppy from me, but right now I just don't feel comfortable. I owe it to my pups to give them the best home ever not to go to a home where they will feel afraid. Then say I am sorry if I knew that was the reason in the begining I would not of offered a pup to you. Then offer to pay for the whelping box. I would not pay for what he is out for the ears since now I know it was his fault for not training his child.
Yet then again you did say you were going to give him the puppy so going back on your word really is not cool. Plus he probably would not have sold the puppy if you did not mention a new pup for him. You are in a tough situation!
I guess the most important thing is that the puppy is safe. Go with your feelings, and if he hates you for it well then he does, but atleast the puppy will be safe. That is all that matters.
Hey one idea is offer to have his daughter over for a day and show her how to respect the dogs. Show both of them a day in the life of proper handling of a puppy. Maybe then you will feel better about it.
I have had dobermans for the past 30 years. As in all breeds the temperment of the dog is about 40% genetics and 60% environment.
Dobermans, like other large potential agressive breeds, are not for everyone. I know when I purchased my current male and female the breeders interviewed me over the phone for over a half an hour before they would even consider selling me one of their pups and still I had to make a trip to the breeder so they could meet me in person as well before the deal was sealed.
I think you should start talking to this guy and talking him into a different breed of dog. Although he may have his heart on a doberman, the breed is not for him at this point in time. Maybe alittle later when his daughters grow up a bit. I would tell him that you would feel responsible if the girls taunted your pup into biting and one of them was scared for life or seriously injured. You may have him angry at you, but better you have the reputation of screening you prospective owners rather than getting the reputation of aggressive dogs.. This could kill your reputation and breeding program.
can you explain what "manhandle" means to you ? I cannot picture two little girls being able to physically manhandle a doberman puppy .... at least not in my definition of manhandle.
i wonder also if it may not be more genetic given the fact that your puppy, from the same litter as his, doesnt sound like it has a very stable or sound temperament itself.
whether you give this man a puppy or not ..... it certainly will not make you look like a great breeder if you give him one and then cut ties with him. if you give him a pup it is your responsibility as a breeder to be there for any and all families that get your pups. you cannot , or rather shouldn't, pick and choose who you will remain in contact with. sorry but i dont like the sound of that at all.
Ok so they guy is out 150 bucks right? And he/kids manhandled the first puppy right? Ok so if you really feel like you owe this guys something, I would give him the 150 he is out and send him on his way.
***Edited By: cschimizzi on 4/5/2006 11:37:34 PM*** Reason: x
What I don't really understand is why you don't have a contract in place that he must return the pup back to you. Wouldn't you want to know what's going on with the dog and see for yourself? If this were a dog of my breeding I would want it back to see if it's environmental or genetics..... There could be a potentially dangerous dog out there that you sold and should be responsible for.
Personally I wouldn't give this man a pup, refund him his money and be done with it.
I didn't say anything on the last post as I didn't want to stir the pot - but I feel safer now. :)
I wouldn't give him a pup. Period. I also would NEVER EVER again promise someone a puppy without a contract in place. I run a waiting list for my puppies and I even have a short contract that I have each person sign when they get on the list stating that I have the right, as the breeder, to decide, prior to the puppy going to their home, that their home is not right for one of my puppies. I use my waiting period (which is usually a 4-6 month wait for one of my puppies) to get to know the families looking at one of my puppies. This helps me really get a feel for what kind of people they are- and whether they are going to be willing to stay in touch with me down the road. (I expect them to stay in touch at least on a minimal level - I don't want weekly check ins by any means, but I do ask to be consulted first if major events take place with their dog so I can offer assistance)
I have only had to refund someone's deposit and tell them "Sorry, you're not the right home for me" on 1 occasion. They initially had told me they had to rehome a previous dog due to a family health emergency that didn't allow them sufficient time to give the dog proper care. I was okay with this, as I understand things come up and I am to get my pups back if the family can't care for them. THEN, right before they went to choose a puppy from a litter the husband slipped from the story and let me know the previous dog had been surrendered to the Humane Society after their kids had teased it so badly that it started biting and barked almost continually. It took me about 10 minutes of finding out the whole story - and my contacting another breeder I know in the area that had refused to sell to them - before I opted to refund their deposit and wish them luck on finding the right pup for their family elsewhere.
Your word sometimes HAS TO change. It just does. If you don't know the whole story when you give your word you aren't making an educated decision. It's really no different than if someone told me "I'm going to adopt a puppy from you - I promise" and then later on finds another breeder, or finds I'm not the right breeder for them, and goes elsewhere. I don't think they're backing out on their word. I think they didn't have all the possible facts yet. It's a two way street.
I agree with whoever said that maybe helping him understand that a Doberman isn't the right breed for him would be a good idea. Something a little more tolerant with children might be a better bet. Or teaching his children how to interact with a dog might be even better...
This whole subject sounds like a horror story we hear about from puppyfind.com
If this were the man on here, telling how he purchased a dobe pup for 600.00 bucks, after being reffered by schoolbuslady, then being dis-satisfied with pup and banding together with her to seek legal advice against original breeder. THEN, schoolbus lady advises him on training, when that fails, tell's him to re-home pup and he WILL get one of her girl's when the litter comes. He buys supplies AND makes a whelping box!
I cannot believe how many people are encouraging her to back-out on her deal. If this person were on here telling of his sob story and how he was duped we'd be circling around offering advice on how HE could get his pup.
Empty promises and never ending excuses/updates....a sign of the time's I guess.
***Edited By: sweetgmichelle on 4/6/2006 1:44:04 AM*** Reason: Typo
Actually Michelle - if the gentleman who had purchased the pup/made the deal with schoolbus came on here and told his side of the story I'd probably tell him to cut his losses and find a different breeder.
I don't like the whole scenerio at all - from any angle. I just think as a breeder, if you discover new information about an "Adoptive Family/Buyer" you have the right to be able to tell them they should go somewhere else.
Example - What if you had agreed to place a puppy with someone but it wasn't quite old enough to go home yet. In the 2-3 weeks that you continued to hold the puppy the family took their current dog to the Animal Shelter because they were getting ready for the new one? In your initial interviews with them they sounded great, sounded like they had a great home to provide and were willing to go the extra mile with a puppy. Suddenly you find out something unappealing about them that makes you uneasy? Do you think the breeder has to still give them the puppy - just because they had already said they would?
I just get tired of people thinking breeders have to be honest & responsible but it's okay for the buyer's to be shady, withhold information, and back out if THEY want to. I don't look at my puppies as merchandise or "a sale". I look at it as an adoption - and I am in charge of making sure they find the best home FOR THEM - not for me.
I think if schoolbus is uncomfortable with the situation she should compensate him for what the whelping box is worth and point him in a new direction. Truthfully, I don't care what the guys is out money wise. He had to assume that there would be expenses with the first pup and HE made a mistake with the puppy (I understand schoolbus possibly made a similar one). When you make a mistake, you often lose money. He didn't HAVE TO rehome the dog. No one held a gun to his head. He could have opted to take the dog through Obedience Classes or hire a private Trainer. He took the easy way out. I understand he had children - but it sounds like maybe the kids were contributing to the problem - which is usually a sign of poor parenting and supervision.
And we don't know his side of the story. If we did - he might come back with something totally different.