the mother was my black and tan double dapple girl. Her grandfather was a chocolate piebald. Mom was where the dappled babies came from. :)
If you would like to see my black/tan pie's dad, you can go to www.greenmountaindoxies.net He is Houdini. His mom is the one named Jewel.
I didn't have to do too much talking to convince hubby to let me keep the pie girl, but he does not like the boys. We can' get them to quit marking inside and we make them wear dog diapers. That's why I have to work on him about the blue pie. If he was a she I would have no trouble!!
Are you sure mom is a double dapple? Double dapples can only produce dappled puppies. No matter what pattern dad is. I have a litter due in 1 month myself and I can't wait! I've only had 2 litters in the last 4 years and I miss it! Congrats!
I guess in that case, the whole litter of pups are dapple piebalds. Even if they don't show it. They will all carry the genes for dapple and pied. I mean, if you go ahead and keep that blue boy, you won't be able to breed him to anything with dapple in it's lines or you will run a really great risk of having double dapples.
I was never going to breed him to any dog with dapple anyway. They must all be that then. The little girl I was going to keep died today, about 10 minutes ago. I am so broken hearted. My hubby did say I can keep 2 pups from the litter because I am so upset about this little one. :(
Mom could either be a double dapple, therefore all the puppies are dapples even if they don't appear to be or could mom perhaps be a piebald and not a double dapple? In that case the puppies would be piebalds. Now if mom is a dappled piebald, then the puppies could be dappled, pied, or dappled pies. Looking at the pedigrees should help you decide. That is IF the dogs in the pedigree were labeled with the proper pattern. If you need any help with it, I would be glad to help! Regardless of what they are, I'm sure they're adorable! Sorry to hear about your little girl.
It is a huge mistake to mix patterns in doxies, ie dapples and piebalds. It is a mistake because the white spotting gene which makes piebalds can cause deafness and blindness just like doubling up on dapple can. Putting white spotting and the dapple gene together in a breed where they exist separetely is really wrong, and is just looking for trouble. Breed pie to solid and dapple to solid, keep the the patterns separete for the sake of the breed.
Since it appears that you didn't already know this I can assume that your a novice. Novices shouldn't be breeding Double Dapples, you should spay your girl, you didn't even know that DD's produce only Dapples. You need to bone up on color genetics before you breed dogs again, particularly dapples.
Before you get all upset and think I'm bashing you, you should also know that there's been a movement going on trying to ban piebalds from confirmation, its argued that some people will mix piebald and dapple to the detriment of the breed, just like you did out of ignorance.
If you really care about your breed stop what your doing and learn more about colors/patterns/pedigrees/genetics.
Another problem that has occured with dapples and pies being bred together is that many of the offspring are registered incorrectly. Dapples are registered as pie and pies are registered as dapples. As I had stated before, knowing the backgrounds of your dogs helps with this issue IF they are correct. Problem with dappled piebalds is that you can register your dog with only ONE pattern. So which do you choose? That type of thing can mess up ones breeding plans. You would look at a pedigree and not really see all that's there. I have a dapple and a piebald. They are only bred to bi's ( ____ & tan). I know exactly what I will be or could be getting when I plan the breeding. Dachshunds come in such a variety of colors and patterns. You definately have to study it to be able to breed what you want. I have seen quite a few people register their really light colored red as cream or chocolate. Then I look at the pedigree and try to explain to them that this is just a washed out red. Some people won't budge!
Dangit...where's longdogs???? I never could get my point across as well as they could :(
At any rate, all of the puppies from this litter need to be neutered/spayed or sold with spay neuter contracts.
I didn't want to come across as mean earlier, but when the colors of the pups were listed...a BIG red flag went up for me.
To clarify for Hench... A TRUE piebald does not have what is considered the "lethal white' gene that dapple/double dapple lines can carry. Their's is a different genetic makeup and you won't see the blindness OR deafness when breeding TRUE Piebald to TRUE Piebald. I understand where you may have come across this concept. It usually applies when a non-TRUE Pie is crossed with a Dapple or Dapple carrier. Because the Pie in this instance carries for Dapple which was then bred to another dapple, you get the DD genes in the offspring.
I DO realise that this was an accidental breeding, but please, please, please, do NOT add any of these puppies to your breeding program. I guarantee it will just cause you future problems down the road.
Hey, accidents happen-- I still luv ya Doxie!! Keep us updated with pics.
***Edited By: PuPzRuS on 2/2/2006 10:02:28 PM*** Reason: add
doxielover- sorry, I obviously opened up a can of worms about this double dapple issue. I am steady going back and forth with this other person who has the Double Dapple Dachshund post going. It's actually getting quite annoying that they don't understand what they are reading at the web page.
Anyhow, I am not here to bash you or judge you. If you would like any help understanding the color/pattern issue with dachshunds, just let me know and I can provide you with a couple of great web pages that have excellent explanations of such. If you already know this info, I don't mean to offend you. Nobody was born knowing all they know about breeding. Live and learn.
Hey Pupz, I do understand that pie to pie does not in itself cause problems, but if there is a lack of color on the head/ears that dog can be deaf. Color plays a big role in development of the inner ear, reason why white/blue eyed cats are often deaf, technically their albinos and the loss of pigment has made them deaf. Still its touch and go, a dog with what appears to be a nearly white head can have perfect hearing, a dog with one white ear can be deaf in that ear alone. More head and body color often mean less impairment, but again it depends on the dog and the placement of the color.
The white on a DD isn't really white, its gray, dapple is like bleach, it dilutes whatever it acts upon, so it looks white but its gray.
Heck, I'm moving my other post over here.
One reason why people are so set against crossing dapples with pies is 1, as Luvs said, you can only pick one 'pattern' on the reg, so the dogs would be registered with incomplete color info, and 2 the white spotting gene intensifys the effect of DD, for instance in breeds like collies double merles are nearly all white, most often deaf, and with smaller than normal eyes, often with sight impairment. Thats because of the white spotting in conjunction with double merle, it makes it worse. Now in a DD puppy without white spotting there's more color on the dog, more color means less impairment, and solid based DD's often do not have the serious hearing and eye problems.
Some colors shouldn't be mixed with dapple, as mentioned above Red often can hide dapple as the dog ages.
I reaslize that this was a mistake breeding, but you can't afford to make mistakes with DD's, the results could be quite unpleasant. Thats why a novice should not have a Double Dapple.
Yes, luvmydoxies! I would definitely love to talk about dachshund colors-I am learning as much as I can. Yes, I knew you should not breed 2 different patterns together, and this was an accident. I will only have one puppy available and I don't think I will sell him till he is 6 months old and can be neutered-which will be done before he goes ANYWHERE. I would love to talk with you through e-mail, write me at *******
BTW the reason the puppy died was because the vet drowned her.She pumped about 30 cc's of water under her skin because she was born dehydrated. This poor puppy was small anyway-they all were. This vet didn't keep her warm..I think she was doing better when I was sitting in front of the corn stove with her.... :(
I know the syringe the woman had was a 60 cc one, and part of what upset me was she did not have her in a warm place at all. just laying on a cold table in a cold room. wouldn't even let me hold her. My normal vet would have had that puppy in a warm room and not allowed anything cold anywhere near her!! My problem was I couldn't get there, because it was too far away for this emergency. :(
***Edited By: Doxielover1 on 2/3/2006 11:19:44 PM*** Reason: e-mail removal
Wow, that is way too much fluid! That's ashame. Times when I have had puppies born at the vets, from c-section or there for x-ray and oxytocin I refuse to leave them there. My girl and puppies come home with me! I stay right there and wait. I just don't feel they have the time it takes to give the newborns one on one. And to tell you the truth I don't think they can do any more for a puppy than I could. I have IV fluids and all that stuff right here at home. Actually, I am not comfortable leaving any of my dogs over night at the vets for any reason. I did have one here who had the auto immune thing going on and she was quite ill. But instead of leaving her at my vets over night , where nobody would be until morning, I drove her to the next town over where they have an emergency clinic with a vet there all night. Then I picked her up in the morning and drove back to my vets. I did this back and forth for 3 days! My bill was insane (actually, I am still paying on it!) Luckily my vet lets me make payments on really expensive bills.
To the new mommy, I started a topic on breeding double dapple. Regardless...I still feel it is not a good thing to breed a double dapple. Why take the chance? It is like breeding a merle Great Dane. It is just not a good idea. Or maybe the point was to not breed two dapples to make the double dapple..who knows. Right now after a long day at work I am tired and my mind is to bogged down with to much information. SO what I am writing is that I went to your web site and you have some very beautiful dogs. If I were looking for a pup it looks like you have a nice group of Mom's and Dad's. By the way is this new Mom on your web site and if so what is her name? I did not think I saw a double dapple. I personally think the double dapples are beautiful. But I too have owned and rescued dogs that were deaf and blind due to genetics so just be open enough to learn the truth. Honestly there are SO many nice dogs out there needing homes so I hate to see a litter of babies come into the world that is not planned. At least doxies do not breed as many babies as Great Danes or some other breeds...and they are usually easier to place in homes. That being said...your crew is gorgous. I am curious though who is the Mom? And how many babies have survived? God Bless, Steph