From my limited knowledge line breeding would include breeding fathers and daughters; mothers and sons. Sisters and brother is inbreeding. I was reading about this a few months ago when I first heard of line breeding. What is your take?
not knowing anything about breeding it sounds wrong. i mean humans cannot have children with their moms and dads w/out serious consequences with health. i have read about guinea pigs being able to breed with their moms and siblings for a few times before you need to worry about genetic deformities. i have a guinea pig now that was born from a mating with a mom and son. he is 2 years old and perfectly healthy and no deformities. i find it very interesting.
Inbreeding and line breeding can be the same thing. Few breeders like to use the phrase inbreeding though, because it has negative connotations. Line breeding includes inbreeding, but generally refers to breeding dogs of the same line. Perhaps the mother and father dog share a common grandparent or great grandparent. While many reputable breeders may do linebreeding on occasion, I know of none who line breed so closely that they have father/daughter and mother/son pairings, because it greatly increases chances of genetic deformities and health risks. There's actually less danger breeding a brother to a sister in the same litter, the co-efficient of inbreeding is only 25%. A mother/son breeding brings the co-efficient of inbreeding up to 50%.
The reason for line breeding is to keep good qualities in the breed. it may sound bad, and i don't really agree with it, but i understand why breeders do it. True pits is a good one to talk about it. they know alot about it. that is how i got to understand it. I also knew some what about it from having horses growing up. It can either turn out really well or really bad! so you are taking a risk when you do it.
father to daughter is inbreeding, to is son to mother, brother to sister and half brother sister breeding. Line breeding is a looser form in which a line is based off a foundation dog but none of the above has occured. Or it can be FROM inbred dogs where two (or one) product of inbreeding are bred together to created a looser lined. Scout you are so right by this. "i mean humans cannot have children with their moms and dads w/out serious consequences with health." Thats because humans have never had undesirable traits bred out so to speak. There are a lot more afflicting genetic illnesses in a human than a dog. We haven't permitted anyone from breeding or sterilized them because they have a genetic disorder. People with diebeties breed and if you bred a son back to his mom well you'd just be increasing this. Lots of animal inbreed (naturally) and they don't have problems or deformities. They are just a part of nature. I'm not sure how inbreeding and linebreeding are the same thing, well they are because linebreeding is usually a very loose form of inbreeding. However a breeder that doesn't reffer to true inbreeding, like the above mentioned matings, has some problems. Does that mean if they bred father to daughter they would call this linebreeding? It is inbreeding, everyone knows what inbreeding is right? Linebreeding is breeding dogs of the same line, dogs that are within this line are line bred, not to be called inbred and shouldn't call inbreeding linebreeding. There not really interchangable because they are for their own form of breeding and terms to help distinguish what type of breeding has been done. What Minn said about linebreeding is true (grand or great grand). But the breeders shouldn't use either term as the other form. The 25% co is because from full brother and sister you are getting the genes from both side of their parents. When you take and breed a dog back to its parents you are going right back up to 50%. Thats how Little Tab got such a great DNA read out, almost indentical to Tab's. No danger of deformities and I don't believe any of these dogs have shown to be unhealthy. Breeding back to the parent (50%) is done to double the traits of that parent, when breeding brother to sister you are "doubling" both. Good idea if the parents are both good animals and the offspring have showed to have the positive traits of both parents. Otherwise I find it pointless to do if BOTH dogs don't have the traits of BOTH parents. The point is to strengthen the traits, one may have them stronger than the other of course and with this breeding make it concistent. Since Minn doesn't seem to know of any breeders here is one. http://www.coldsteelpits.com/coldsteelmainpage.htm Here is another http://browndog10.20m.com/ Most of the breeders I know however know how to effectly use all the tools and breeding methods with great success.
Thank you True_Pits! That was a very eloquent and informative post. Line breeding IS different than Inbreeding. I can go along with Parent/Offspring breeding but not Sister/Brother breeding. That combination tends to make the offsrping have 2x the good qualities but also 2x the bad. Any fault in the line will be magnified greatly. I wouldn't say that dogs are the same, but I know that dairy farmers in my area will breed Father/Daughter up to 2 generations. They never have any genetic abnormalities/deformities. Once they get past 2nd generation they will change Bulls.
True Pits ,how in the world can you even cadone that Cold Steel pits dogs are ok. I'm sorry to show bloody dogs and hog hunting. Most of the dogs in the pics look nasty and mean. I would never buy from them,ever. They portray these dogs in a real negative light,although I know you disagree.I want dogs portrayed as loving house pets(like mine),therapy dogs.sar dogs,drug sniffing dogs. Not some hog hunting killer sport.
i won't pretend to know anything about pits but i goota tell you. if i saw a website like coldsteel and i was looking for a pit for the wrong reasons i would definitely purchase from them. joe q public is going to take one look at this website and believe every nasty thing ever said about pitbulls. how is what they portray on their website bettering the public image of a pit? they are actually portraying every horrible thing ever said about them. how is showing a dog ripping a hog to death bettering the image of a pit? that to me is a horrible image to portray. no wonder people buy them for the wrong reasons. maybe they are buying the right breed for what they want after all. you have always made pretty good sense in speaking of your breed but these pictures are just to damaging.
Go to Christine Crawfords web site ,and meet the real true American Pit Bull Terrier. Meet Dakota ,Tahoe , and Cheyenne.These are real true American Pit Bull Terriers ,real American Heroes. The site is called For Pits Sake.These are the way Pits shoulds be portrayed.Just type in For Pits Sake ,it should bring you there. On my new web site I have a link to her site. This woman is incredible,and what she has done for the breed and her dogs. Plus they where all death row rescues.
I agree, those dogs look anything but well socialized, chained outside to giant logging chains that are staked tothe ground? And knowing they do such close inbreeding, how can I help but think that some of the temperament problems that are associated with pit bulls come from the extensive inbreeding that seems to be taking place? And the 'hog catch' photo is really disturbing. That isn't a hunt, that's some poor pig thats been tossed in an enclosed pen(note the fences!) to that dog as bait. Yeah. Fun. Great breeder.
If you type in For Pits Sake ,it's right before number three on the link board,it starts out gentle warriors,Dakota Cheyenne and Tahoe. Her story is amazing. This is the type of person that should be portraying the breed,not sickos like Cold Steel Pits. You portray our dogs like this ,only sickos will want them, I try to fight against this type of advertising.I want our breed to be loved and cared for by loving caring humans,not killing machines. It's cruel.
I have to agree w/ Scout...I clicked on your website that offered, the cold steel pitbulls or whatever the heck they are...that is the negative portrayel that I hear about in the news all the time- pitbulls ripping ppl apart, biting children, having to be put down b/c they are so aggressive. I can't believe you would post a negative website like that, TP, considering you offer such good advice to ppl about breeding- but maybe its only good in theory and not practice. Maybe what i perceive as negative is mainstream to you guys. This honestly doesn't look like a positive image of the pit bull at all- why would u post a website that had such negative imagery. Didn't u see the photos i posted the other day about the fighting/drug ring that was broken up in florida- a bait dog had half his face torn off. Honestly if i looked at the website and i was looking to get a pit bull, that would be the last place i would look- those dogs look mean and aggressive, and if they are breeding mean and aggressive dogs, what kind of breeders are they? And what could they possibly use these dogs for- i know- dog fighting. Thats what it looks like these dogs are bred for, honestly. Unless of course I'm missing something. I know hunting dogs usually only flush out the prey...or tree the prey...and the hunter finishes them off. I didn't know ppl could hunt farm animals and that would be considered some sort of competition. Thats like raising a turkey and letting loose in the woods and then trying to "hunt" it. Are pit bulls normally used to tear prey apart, and what is the hunter's role then if he finishes them off. And why does one of the photos show a man holding a knife while he's next to the dog and the pig? Is he afraid the dog may lash out at him? Do you actually believe in a "hobby" breeder like that (thats they describe their breeding program in their intro)... CNN news had a piece on an Oregon couple who allowed their children to be repeatedly bit by their pitbull. The children went to the ER on several occasions, i guess. The parents were finally charged w/ various counts, and the pitbull had to be euthanized. Only armed w/ that story and that website, a person could certainly get the wrong idea bout the animal- don't you think? I hope there are def better breeders out there than that- I would think ppl buy dogs for the appeal of having a close companion, not to rip something apart.
Hog-dogging (what you see in the pictures where the pit is attacking the hog) comes in two forms. People in rural areas will often use pits to corner wild hogs (not farm animals) because wild hogs are mean and dangerous. However, in this form, the hogs still have their tusks, and the goal is for the dogs to corner the animal so that the person can shoot it. Some people wanted to give their dogs a chance to practice cornering hogs, so they set up competitions in arenas to mimick the chase. These competitions originally included hogs with tusks, and the pit lost if he actually attacked the animal instead of cornering it. Many of the competitions have since devolved into attack competetions in which the hogs have their tusks removed so that they won't be able to defend themselves, and the dogs are rewarded for attacking the hogs as quickly as possible. Louisiana has recently passed legislation to ban this second form of hog-dogging.
Thank you for the info protodog and minniyar... I thought maybe those were wild pigs...but it looked like the dog killed the pig, which is sort of the opposite of what protodog states in the goal of hog dogging. Could anyone ever own these dogs as companions? At least what i am looking at concerning this hobby breeder...
From what I read recently.... In the opinion of a breeder, which I am not sure if I completely agree with: If you dont' line breed and choose to breed outside of the line you are doing a great injustice to the breeding process. This seems a bit strange to me. I agree that line breeding is helpful, but I don't think that adding a dog from a different line is like playing Russian roulete.
I can hardly stand to be in the presence of such ignorance. Minn you have a lot of good information but if people disagree or have a different opinion from what you say doesn't mean they are bad, causing problems, bad people or wrong. Inbreeding doesn't cause any problems if you still don't get that through your head then that is your problem. If you don't want to except it. Temperament problems came to the breed when it exploded in the 80s, pit bulls have been inbred for 100s and had the best temperament I've ever seen. Look at the Lil Rascals you and you will see a linebred dog bred for dog fighting that is as gentle and intellegent as they come. Its one thing to have a different opinion its another to come up with bs about a breed that you seem to not have knowledge about. My dogs sire is an extremely friendly and even tempered dog, he is from a father/faughter breeding, he isn't aggressive to anything in anyway he is a dog that is worth breeding. My dog is a friendly fool, way too friendly, the most friendly on my yard and has the best disposition. Knows how to act in every situation, in good health, correct temperament, and best conformation over any of my others. His mother is the good traits and seems to have a pretty good intellegence and he also got this. She has a good temperament she is from son to mother, like I said his sire had an extremely friendly temperament and isn't aggressive to humans or dog, he got his sires temperament which happens to be the same as his grandsires from the father/daughter breeding. So he is in there 2 times. He got his great temperament, conformation, intellegence all rolled into the wonderful dog he is. Hog hunting is legitimate sporting event. Catch competitions are not my bag of cake because they are pointless. I don't see a need for them. Hog hunting if you even knew about the damages hogs cause, the farmers they can ruin, the animals they will eat, the crops they destroy in one day, the fact that they won't only kill people they will eat them and cause injury/death when they cause the many motor vehicle accidents they do. Maybe you would feel different human life and welfare is more important than the pest animal that is farrel to our country. How do you feel about deer hunting? Should we stop? If we did the outcome could be disaster for us. I live in a rural area with a high deer population. In one city close to here deer hunting isn't allowed with in a certain proximity of the city limit well the deer population went out of control deers were detroying/eating food supply, acting "crazed" they were probably scared and confused. Running across open freeways and traffic filled streets causing car wrecks and even injry death to themselves. A deet twitching and in pain from a broken back isn't a lovely site. A hog detroying and damaging crops is bad for our economy and people, most the time when they cause car wrecks they don't get injured themselves they ust get up and keep going. You can't simply hunt hog like you can deer. They are faster than you think and require dogs to both trail and catch. You can't just shoot them unless you want to keep shooting and shooting and shooting because they have thick tough skin, even the bullets that penatrate to not kill the hog. Boars are nasty creatures, they are not "mean" but thats just their nature, very tough animal that can take a lot and be extremly dangerous. There is no reason not to use Pit Bulls amoung other breeds in catch work. There is nothing wrong with catch work and just because some idiot, irresponsible owners and bybs have bred problems into dogs or made them bad dogs doens't mean that now we shouldn't no longer use our breed in work. If anyone on this forum actually have real knowledge on the real american pit bull terrier they would know that it is a working breed (of many different lines of work) and that working breeds are not dangerous to people. Rhodisian Ridgebacks were used to hunt lions and also left with and baby sit kids. Elkhounds were used to hunt and protect against everything under the sun and that includes being used in catch work, yet they had a great love and respect for children and watched over them diligently. Why would Pit Bulls be any different. Well they wouldn't. They are supposed to be bred with stability in mind and sound temperament, regardless of being inbred, linebred or outcrossed, regardless of being working or show dogs. When I see Petey I see the true and real american pit bull terrier. Minniyar is the one trying to damage the breed and its image. They have been inbred a lot and have the best most stable temperaments I've seen in most breeds. One reason I choose the breed and I've grown up around them. They tolerated anything I did and loved me to death, these dogs changed so many peoples minds. Cold Steels dogs have some superior temperaments, great conformation, are socialized, have working ability, have good pedigrees, don't have any health problems or difformities. One of there best litters in all around outstanding dogs was GR CH Boogieman to CH Rebel. Of course their dogs are on large chains, thats a no brainer when you breed Pit Bulls. Chains are the number one most effective way to keep your dog safe. Its called being responsible. Learn about the breed and breeders people you start saying trash and lies about the breed. Working dogs are not at all mean, people and animal aggression are two different things. hunting dogs are not mean, weight pull dogs are not mean, SCH dogs are not mean. The exstensive inbreeding as you call it has been here for ever, but only in the last 20yrs year have Pit Bulls began to deterriorate and temperament go down the drain. So what you say holds no truth and you are unable to back it up. Like I said Red Boy was inbred and the red boy line is a very tightly inbred line and I've never met a red boy dog with a bad temperament. Never seen too many with any major faults, all lines and dogs have faults. One of red boys are their feet, which isn't something major and dispite major amounts of inbreeding it has never become excessive, a defect or deformity. It has stayed the same. No those are not "hog catch" photos in the wild. If you would research you would know that a lot of breeders don't just throw there dogs out on a hunt. Also that their are competitions (which I don't agree with). A dog needs to know what it is doing and captive wild caught hogs help with that. Its disturbing to you but its for the dogs benefit. The dogs will also accompany older dogs on hunts to then learn from them, after being put in the enclosure. Sorry its not bait at all and you are again wrong. If you don't know crap about pit bulls then don't spread crap about them. If you certainly dont know hog hunting then dont speak about them. Or a breeder you don't know. Their dogs are so unsocialized that they are so extremely friendly and will let strangers pet them, walk right onto the yard, kids handle them and Jr handlers and wow the judges near them. You know what happens when you don't socialize a dog? It becomes afraid of people and may act aggressivly. It may fear bite, bark or growl or become reserved, shy. Sorry but if they were not well bred, socialized Pit Bulls they wouldn't friendly greet strange people at shows, wouldn't have a lot of confidence, would win shows either being aggressive and disqualified and removed from show grounds or shy/unsure and wouldn't place no matter how good it looked. Because our breed is about its temperamen, not just its looks. Yeah when a breeder has goodlines, welbred, good temperament, food health, good conformation, good working ability, cares about their dogs and doesn't peddle pups away they are a great breeder. The dogs do not look nasty and mean, they look like healthy dogs. Some conditioned some at chain weight. If they look mean to you then thats your problem, they just look like ordinary pit bulls to me. Most likely REDNOSERED they wouldn't sell you a dog, but thats besides the point. Even if they would I'm sure its fine by them not to have your business. But why by from bybs, you should look around at all sites and find a good reputable breeder. Explore your opitions, not all people breed working dogs this was just one of the sites breeding working/show dogs. The 2nd was show/pull dogs. if you didn't look. Just because people choose different lines of work I have no idea where your coming from? Why do you have a problem with these people? These people are not sickos, and I'm not even sure where that weird and uncalled for remark came from. Sickos don't spend countless hours caring for their dogs every day, hundreds of thousands going to shows, making sure their dogs are are in top health all the time and certainly before breeding. DNA profiling there dogs. Helping other people. Helping against BSL. Raising there pups with the most and care possible. Sickos would be breeding poor quality dogs that they didn't give a crap about, they would put no time into their dogs, wouldn't have spend the enourmous time of money they people have researching and learning of the breed or the enourmous amount of money just aquiring good foundation stock, caring for, doing health testing, profiling, shows, supplies, good feeed, socializing, BSL and all those other things too numorous to mention. Sorry but they are not killing machines and catch dogs don't kill. They are normal loving wellbred, good temperament pits that happen to be used in hog hunting and shows. Sickos don't want them. Sickos don't even do hog hunting or shows (for the most part because there is bad in every aspect). People who do hog hunting or show breeding or those who want a pet from good stock. Sickos are the people breeding for people aggression, dog aggression on purpose, fighting there dogs to the death, multiltating or raping dogs for fun. Breeding to make money and forcing their female to breed every heat, those are sickos. These people wouldn't sell to those people and its not likely that sickos would inquire, but its always a possibility. In public my dogs, I try to get the best image out and show what the real breed is like. Still I'm approached by what I consider to be sickos wanted me to fight my PUPPY with there dog, or asking if I want to breed my dog because they have a bitch and she straight crazy will bite anything that moves. Those to me are sickos and you can't do anything about them, thats why responsible breeders either screen homes or know the people they are selling to. These people wouldn't sell for a killing machine and love their dogs just as much as you or I. How do they potray them in a negative light? They do have working (hog hunting) dogs why should that have to do with negativity? Thats what I don't understand? they have healthy animals, with good temperments, they don't have sickly or malnourished dogs/pups, their dogs either have CH/GR CH or are very close to obtaining it. They breed with the best traits of the APBT in mind for working/show or pet. Bybs breeders breed pets and don't know what they are doing. Having a Pit Bull as a pet isn't a problem. I don't see anything wrong with being proud of your pet and I think Pit Bulls used in search and rescue or therapy is a good thing. But what does that have to do with hog hunting. What would be your solution, people should stop breeding good working dogs because you think it gives the breed a worse "image" because of stupid owners. Hog hunting isn't a killer sport like you seem to make it out to be. Hog hunting is a legit form of hunting and most succesfully done with dogs. If we didn't have hog hunting "we'd" be in trouble. These hogs can't be hunted fast enough, they are hard to hunt in the first place and reside in very thick brush and are very fast or go down in creaks and muddy waters. They can survive eating almost anything, scavenging, detroying crops and eating other animals. They are very resiliant and their offspring survive just as succesful as they are. They have no natural predators, no predators could really hunt them because they are so hard to kill. I have already been to that site, seen pics in a book and read about it in a magaizine all those dogs which I know to be SAR dogs. I see nothing wrong with that. I don't dislike dogs like that and think they are doing a good service to be, just like hog hunting in the 1000s of dollars of crop destruction which is the livelyhood of some people. SAR and hog hunting, they are two different things, but just because you like this persons dogs or what they are doing doesn't mean you should not like others who are using there dogs in a different form of work. If you were some one wanting a pit for the wrong reasons you wouldn't get one from them because they sell very few dogs to very few people. And those people are not people wanting dogs for the wrong reason. So you most definatly wouldn't get one from them. If you were a responsible breeder wanting to add to your hog hunting stock or a breeder breeding conformation dogs you would be getting one. I'm just wondering about your whole post scout because why would some one believe anything nasty about Pit Bulls from this site? Other breeds like Catahoulas and American Bulldogs are used in hog hunting. They are not portraying anything horrible by showing they breed catch dogs and are one of the top holders for conformation CH titled dogs of all kennels. Sorry if you believe hog hunting pictures to be damaging. But its something that is actually good for the welfare of people who would otherwise be in great harm by hogs.