Hi. I'm doing a specialist project as part of my college course and I have decided to do it on in-breeding dogs, the reasons why breeders do it and the problems associated with it. I was wondering what is everybodys opinion on this subject? Thanks!
***Edited By: emmab on 10/27/2006 9:44:39 AM*** Reason: spelling!
Remember, all of our domesticated animals are results of inbreeding. That is how we domesticate htem. We breed the animals that have the trates we want to animals closely related to them and only keep the ones that have what we want.
It isent just dogs.
Inbreeding dosen't work well in humans often because we don't allow people not to reproduce. However, realize, there are several studied populations on this planet that are heavily inbred and very healthy.
Inbreeding helps you build a consistant line, that means whether the line is crappy or quality if you inbreed you multiply the traits. Inbreeding a good quality line helps insure the traits will be consistantly reproduced and that no outside unknowns can get in and contaminate the line. A pure family of dogs can be one that is extremely healthy, but obviously if you breed dogs of poor quality you will only magnify the problem or if you breed two seemly ok dogs (especially without really knowing the background) you can end up with a litter that is almost all bad because both parents are carriers of the same traits/genes. Inbreeding show the truth of the dogs and line, while continued outcrossing only hides whats there. If you continue to outcross and scatterbreed then you can hide problems although they will usually show up later due to some of the unralated dogs sharing the same fault or health problem. Also if you breed like this it is less predictable as to what the litter will come out like, because you are drawing upon a lot of different genetic material and will usually lack consistency. Inbreeding is breeding Father to Daughter, Mother to Son, Brother to Sister, or half siblings, some also consider a full uncle/aunt bred to a niece/nephew also inbreeding, some also consider grand parent to grand kid inbreeding while others say its linebreeding. Linebreeding is a form of inbreeding with related dogs that are not as closely related such as cousins, great grand parents to great grand kids, an uncle/aunt being only a half sibling to the parent of the dog they are to be breed with, 2 dogs of the same line/foundation dogs but not directly related as cousin, grandparent, uncle/aunt or any 2 dogs being bred who share common ancestors. All forms of breeding are useful as far as inbreeding, linebreeding and outcrossing. If you have a good line but it starts to lack something you don't want to continue with that because the genes will be further multiplied and will ruin the line instead you'd want to outcross to another line that has what you are lacking, culling those who are undesirable and keeping the ones that share the positive traits of both lines and continue to linebreed on with those dogs.
Inbreeding amplifieds like genetic material and thats why it produces consistently and how you create a line, its also what makes problems arise or makes a line so great. Some people are very opposed to it because they don't understand it or think its all bad/dangerous. One good example of a good inbred dog (in the APBT world) is a dog known as Little Tab. He is a son of Tab & CH Wild Wonda. Tab's sire is CH Jeep and dam is a female from the Red Boy line. Wild Wonda is double bred Tab and tight Jeep. Tab was bred to a female called Katie who is a double bred grand daughter of CH Jeep and 5 times CH Honeybunch (Jeep's mom) in 4 generations. Tab and Katie produced Lucy Girl, Lucy Girl was then bred back to Tab to get CH Wild Wonda and in turn Wild Wonda was bred back to her sire/grandsire Tab to get Little Tab. Little Tab's DNA was analyzed and compared to Tab's (his sire/grandsire/great grandsire) it was identical on 7 out of 10 Loci, just 3 allele were different. This means that Tab is almost reincarnated. Is this good or bad? Considering that Tab was a healthy dog and good producer and that Tab dogs in general are also healthy, conformationally correct, have good temperaments, ect thats not bad at all. What does it mean? It means that Little Tab should hopefully be a great producer like Tab due to sharing a lot of the same genetic make up. He can be linebred and outcrossed and should produce well either way just line Tab, its like having a once gone stud cloned, Tab is still alive but I believe like 13yrs last time I heard and no longer being bred. You still want some genetic diversity, even if you had 10 dogs with that much of a similarity and all were great dogs (which would make sense that they would be) they still may have a weakness and if all these dogs shared the same genetic weakness they could all died from the same disease or illness, so if all in the breed or species were the same that would mean they would all be wiped out. So while you could have 10 dogs like this within the line, its good to know that they are not identical and good for them to be outcrossed once this level of genetic similarity is reached. That is the only downfall I can see though for such a tightly bred line of dogs. But outcrossing and bringing in other quality lines now and again helps keep it fresh.
As far as human I agree for one they are not stopped from reproducing even when we know they are a carrier of a genetic problem. As well there are a lot more problems and health issues that humans have vs canines. If you look most people are not inbreeding or linebreeding but share a lot of the same diseases, children are born with rare genetic diseases that are like one in a million. Why? Because unlike dogs people are not bred for betterment, they have children to have a family not to breed best to best, they are not culled i.e. people with mental disorders and health problems are allowed to pass them on and there are not test done on humans before they are allowed to be breed. A lot of things they don't have a test for and there are so many they'd need thousands of test, tou can get tested for some genetic disorders, you can even have a baby in the womb tested to see if it has a problem, but this is not a MUST for you to have a child anyone can have a child and isn't forced to be tested before doing so and isn't given a tubal/visectamy if they test positive for being a carrier of something. Its still their choice. A lot of people either don't do these test because they don't have known risk factors-no one in their family that they know of has a certain disease either because it doesn't run in their family or because its been being carriered undetected so far because no family members have been tested nor have they yet produced offspring with this problem.
I do not agree with inbreeding (brother/sister, son to mother, grandson to grandma, nephew to aunt) but I do think when it is necessary you can line breed. You can take a grand daughter back to a grandpa, daughter back to a sire, a neice back to a uncle etc. I was told by a genetics major that studied dogs that there is a difference. You can take females back to related males but never males back to related females. Brother to sister is a no no, son to mom type thing. That is the way I have always known how to solidify your bloodline by taking females back to males that are related. That is linebreeding. Taking males to realted females is inbreeding. I have done none of the above until I have studied myself about genetics but what I have been told is a male back to a related female is a big no no.
In-breeding and Line-breeding are essentially the same thing! A person that chooses this route will have to make some serious choices at some point (Culling) and at the very very least neutering! I have not used, but my bitch was line breed with great results, I myself am out crossing to add some traits. I was told by a long time breeder that when something goes wrong when In-breeding, you will never do it again!
I re read what I wrote and it is a little confusing but I am not going to try and get the point across it would be useless. I am passionate about breeding but like I wrote until I study genetics more about linebreedin/ inbreeding I will not do it. I am good friends with a lady that did study genetics for 10 years and has 3 degrees in it and has worked on her own bloodline for 25. I am pretty confident in learning her knowledge because she produces very consistant litters and owns 10 generations on her yard alone and has a 7 generation pedigree filled with just her bloodline on just about every litter she produces. It does not matter what dogs you breed of her you will get the same in every litter even if you outcross her bloodline with something else you will still get a consistant litter that is how strong her bloodline is. I am learning about genetics and reading stuff on the internet is all kinda different. It varys in definitons and what people think and write. I will continue to take her advice and learn as much as I can from her and what I read. So pope dont you worry what I am doing and how much my heart is into it. I am younger and learning every thing I can. You have to learn as you go because I am sure you did not just know everything from the start.
***Edited By: utopia on 10/27/2006 3:44:23 PM*** Reason: ff
Another consideration has to be how large a particular breeds gene pool is, GSP's and English Setters have a huge gene pool, where-as a Griffon or Vizsla would not.
Some breeds have defanitly been in-bred way to much and loose the traits of what they were meant to be, IMHO this is mostly a show dog problem as people have been breeding looks only and not all the other traits of that breed.
The 2 problems above I think are related and from my knowledge of pointing and retrieving breeds.
Maybe someone can answer me this, If a gene pool is small and polluted from in-breeding,, How can a person say out-cross to a breed with a large gene pool with similar traits (example GSP/Vizsla) to bring in some fresh genetics and still have your AKC papers? Is there some way to save or improve a breed with a small/shallow/polluted gene pool?
pope I read your link and that is just good basic definitions of linebreeding and in breeding.
Most consider it the same but what has been learned by my friend is a little more complicated then just the definiton difference between line and in breeding. With years of studying and producing what she is teaching me is she has found out that when you take a female back to a male of any relation you get pretty much the definition of line breeding or inbreeding with good results. It has made her bloodline stronger and strengthened the good traits in her bloodline. She refers to that as linebreeding but by definition of your link it could be either. When she has taken a male back to a related female she has never been as satisfied with the results and classifies it to her as inbreeding. She sees more of the bad genetic traits show up in the off spring and grand off spring.
So in other words she has taken a grand daughter back to her grand sire with great results. She has also taken a daughter back to her sire with great results.
When she took a grand son back to his gradma she did not get as great of results. Same with her breeding a son back to his mom - it proved yet again pointless and not worthy of her bloodline.
I do not know if that makes any more sense to you but when you sit down with her and know what her dogs look like and there traits and pedigrees it makes perfect sense to me what she says and shows me. She has the proof and results there. She can show you offspring and grand off spring from every breeding she has done. Some still in her breeding program and some not. She is probably the only person I know that has over 100 dogs now on her yard that she has produced to study there genetic trait and the outcome of breedings. She has produced the strongest bloodline I know of and has even narrowed her bloodline down to what colors they will produce and what shades of that color. It is very intresting and I have learned alot from her. She knows what her females will throw down to color and sex before they even drop. So I will stick with what I learn from her and some of what I read and will keep learning because you never know it all.
Colors are easy to predict with basic pedigree information and only god can predict sex. She knows what sex they will produce? That is B*llshit. 100 dogs??!! I can only hope that you are exaggerating. I'm no genetic expert but I could easily produce a line of doxies that produces only reds, one for black/tans, one for chocolate/tans, etc.. That's nothing! I did re-read your statements and as I said, what you are saying does not make sense. Yes, I understand what you are saying, but it is not accurate.
***Edited By: luvmydoxys on 10/27/2006 4:29:29 PM*** Reason: add on
luvmydoxys Do you live near the texas area? I will be glad to take you to see for yourself. She has now around 100 dogs give or take 10 that comes from her bloodline. I will post pictures next time I go for you to see or better yet come and see for yourself. I can give you her email address to converse with her and you can ask her for yourself and ask her any question you have.
(YEs she does have a full time staff to care for her dogs round the clock)
As for colors when dealing with pitbulls and starting with your foundation blood you will probably have a wide variety of colors with pitbulls. She has narrowed it down to 3 shades of color that stems from black. Black, blue and fawn bluie. She can still produce red if you want her to but typically she does not anymore. If you research her pedigree there are alot of different colors she started with. If you know your males then you should know what sexes he throws and his ratio of those sexs. If you know your females and there mom and grand mom you can pretty much estimate how many pups she will have without ultrasound. If you know, study and truely have your own bloodline as she does then you should know exactly what you will be getting before you get it. This is the only person I know that eats, sleeps and lives for her dogs 100% from when she was in her early 20's back in the late 70's. She can remember every pup she has produced who they are off of and who to breed them too to get the best results. She has such a huge amout of knowledge if you would like to get into contact with her just let me know. She is also thinking of writing a book about it because she has cancer and would like to share all her knowledge of what she has learned and knows before her time is up. I hope you are not calling me a liar because I would love to prove you wrong.
actually certain colors are easy to predict in certain breeds, if you know the patterns of dominance and recessive colors, incomplete dominance, etc. If you know what colors are in the breeding dogs complete pedigree and you know which colors are dominant/recessive you most certainly can predict the probable color outcomes in a particular litter.
It is easier in some breeds than others. For example, in a breed like the dachshund, where pretty much *any* color is acceptable, it'd be more of a task to predict litter coat color outcomes than it would be in the litter of labrador retrievers, who basically only come in 3 acceptable colors, black being dominant, and chocolate and yellow being recessive.
luvmydoxies all knowledge is repeated and borrowed. You did not come up with what you know by yourself. You learned it and repeated it from someone or something. I am repeating what she told me because that is what I learned just like what you say is what you learned. --
How many years have you been breeding? How many generations on a pedigree have you filled? How many champions and litters of consistancy have you produced? How many years of college did you take to study genetics? How much proof do you have that is your own? It is hard for some people to open there mind to knowledge they have yet to hear but I am a prove it to me person and she has the proof that I can see with my own eyes.
I myself do not have much experience but I am learning what she knows because obviously she has done it the correct way. You can see it in her dogs and what she produces and what she has produced over the last 12 years. It took her about 12 years to perfect her bloodline and she has. The first 12 years of breeding was all learning experience and now she can honestly say she has a awesome bloodline that can be used as foundation to a new breeder. 25 years of breeding and she will admit the first 12 was a complete learning experience. I have a lot of learning to do but not everyone is open minded. Some people are stuck with what knowledge they know and will not learn any further.