how much is enough and how much is too much. there is all this talk of animal abuse. but where do you we actually cross the line between good order and discpline to complusive abuse. i would like to hear everyones thoughts
I know lots of people won't agree with me, but I think anything physical is not good. And I think this because I did it, and it made everything worse. when I stopped what I was doing to correct him physically, and used positive training, clicker training, and the nothing in life is free program, the changes were amazing. And my dog is a stubborn male terrier, mind you!
Any situation that would cause an animal to become fearful is Abuse......what might not be for one animal may be for another. I could not EVER hit my dogs or cats or any animal for that matter unless it was life threatening, I don't even believe in spanking my kids. But yet I use a prong collar for correction on my larger dog Koda, (Golden Retriever/Chow mix) He looks golden but has the stubborness of a Chow, His fur is so thick that the prongs don't even touch his skin. But anyway, As far as physical abuse goes....ANY hitting or kicking, etc. would be considered abuse, no matter the reason. Now emotional abuse is alot harder to tell....my personal opinion is not showing/giving an animal just the basics that it needs in life to survive. i.e. love, attention, a dog house, (being put in the house where it belongs)(being loved by the whole family even if it was bought for the son) If you deny that than that to me is still a form of abuse.
I agree, my opinion is that an animal should never be hit, or any thing else physical. I have never hit my animals and I have never had a major training problem. Not that my dogs are perfect by any means, but they aren't the monsters that I encounter at the park, etc. And by monsters I only mean wonderful dogs with crappy owners who won't even try to control them. LOL If I see someone making and effort it doesn't irk me nearly as much as people who just seem to think they don't mind if their dog runs all over them, so you shouldn't either. Summer girl, I just read your post, I guess we were typing at the same time. I agree about the prong collar, I used it to train my golden who was way to hyper on the leash, and now he's fine, even without the collar. Didn't hurt him either. As far as the emotional abuse, you may not be able to physical marks, but you can see the sadness in the dog. It's awful.
well, I'm no dog expert. But I have participated in lots of training classes of different methods, and by volunteering in a shelter and working in a vet hospital, I have seen lots of dogs and lots of owners! When I got my dog, everyone who ever owned a dog gave me advice about how to discipline it. The thing I heard over and over again was "you have to get dominance over your dog". So I was advised to scruff shake and alpha roll, looking directly in my dog's eyes. I did this for a couple months and could see he was acting differently in negative ways. And I felt horrible doing it anyways. I took him to a positive trainer (clicker training and classical conditioning methods) and when she asked me how I disciplined him, I told her everything I'd been doing. she proceeded to tell me that if I were to continue those methods I would not be welcome in her class. So I gave her methods a try, and as I said, the results have been great.
i've done a few scruff shakes, and i've squeezed lips of biters, but i think too any hitting is abuse. i get great results with the positive methods. right on about the neglect, too. dogs have emotional needs.
i use the scruff shake for major offenses, chewing ,toy stealing,growling at humans. and we had a major recall problem with my malinois and i used a static shock collar (after exausting all other options). i may have used 5 times and he is different dog. attentive,obedient, and he even seems more relaxed. i did not want to go that route but it was a last resort.
Any time you discipline your dog and you get submissive urination youve gone too far psychologically. Regarding physically hitting a dog, I have swatted at both my child and my dog for rare offenses. Stealing food from my toddler or any other human is a capital offense. I also do not tolerate growling or truly aggressive displays towards family or friends.
I heard the Monks of New Skete put out a revised edition of "The Art of Raising a PUppy", and in it they apologize for the previous book's reccomendations to alpha roll and scruff shake. They do not recommend those techniques anymore. I have a great book called "The Other End of the Leash" by Patricia McConnell, dog behaviorist, and she doesn't recommend those techniques either....
I give my Westie a little "spank" on the bottom (really only a tap) when she is chewing on furniture or us. Thus far it has been fairly effective. Though technically I am hitting her, it certainly doesn't seem like abuse to me. She doesn't yelp when I do it, merely stops what she is doing and looks at me.
i am a big fan of the monks of new skete. the book you are talking about is called,"how to be your dogs best friend" they still endorse the scruff shake down, but do not recommend the alpha dog roll-over, especially in over dominant dogs. where it could lead to a bite
I forgot- I still think staring directly at a dog while scruff shaking is a pretty bad idea. Doesn't almost every reputable trainer say to never look a dog straight in the eye because they could take it as a challenge?