I have been contacted by an individual who wanted to ask a couple of questions about a specific breeder. Since it can't be posted on the forum, she PMd me. She gave me the site and a few things jumped out at me.

I'm not talking about the multitude of pups bred, nor the fact that they were selling mixed breeds for a high amount. Unfortunately, there had been a substantial, non-refundable deposit already paid, so all that could be done was to either forfeit the money paid as deposit (which is the total amount I charged for one of my Pyr pups) or hope and pray that she ended up with a healthy puppy. She didn't. Thankfully, the pup was taken to her vet within 72 hours.

I will leave it to her to share the details or not, as she choses, but think that the newbies to the site as well as the multitude of visitors through this site should have a couple of "RUN THE OTHER WAY" pointers, without dragging in the issues of mixed vs purebred or one registry over another. As with the "my dog is expecting, now what do I do"...it's far more important to deal with the issue at hand, then debate the rest of it. Who knows? Perhaps we might even help a few people avoid heartbreak, not to mention countless dollars spent on vet bills which sometimes still result in a dead pup. A bonus would be hitting the millers where it hurts, in their pocketbook.

SOOOOOOOO...if you'd like to share serious warning signs of a puppy miller, leaving out mixed vs purebred (we know there re millers out there breeding purebred pups as well) or the money spent on mixed/designer breeds, I'd be most appreciative.

If people would get in the habit of looking at the guarantee BEFORE scrolling through the photos of those sweet puppy faces, I think many would be saved heartache.

ALWAYS READ THE GUARANTEE FIRST!
In looking at this particular breeder's site the following red flags went up for me:

1. No refunds. EVER. For any reason.
2. No guarantee for pups with any form of diabetic problems.
3. No guarantee for Coccidia.
4. No guarantee for Parvo.
5. Have Nutrical on hand before the puppy arrives (WTH?)
6. Repeated mentions of what happens in the event of a pups death.

Another thing is the amount of the non-refundable "deposit", which was well (as in 2 - 3 times the amount) over a reasonable fee to hold a pup.

Any breeder who is worth their salt never releases a puppy before it is an average of 10 weeks of age. Some at 8 weeks, others, like myself with our 1 litter at 12 weeks. Any breeder worth their salt has had several vet checks for that pup by then, NOT just the vet visit for the health certificate. Yes, things happen that might not have been caught by the breeder or the vet. Things that don't show up for months or perhaps years. But to EXPECT the death of pups as routine??? Again, WTH?

Again, this thread is for general warnings, not bashing of any breeder/kennel or type of pups in question.

***Edited By: pyrmom on 6/24/2008 6:58:14 AM***
Reason: *

5. Have Nutrical on hand before the puppy arrives (WTH?)

If it's a tiny tiny toy breed.. that's not uncommon a request.

It's really important when you're looking at a health guarantee that it doesn't exclude breed specific problems. I recently ran across a Sheltie breeder who excluded Sheltie Eye Syndrome (similar to Collie Eye Anomaly) - obviously a breed specific issue in Shelties. Make sure you find out what health issues are common for that breed (or with mixes - breeds, because mixed breed puppies can potentially have health issues from either side of the family tree).

At the same time - stay away from guarantees that only cover 1-2 health problems. (Just hips for example - almost no breed only has 1 health concern)

A health guarantee should be a show of a breeder's confidence in the health of their dogs. EVERY breeder will have an occasional puppy with a health issue if they breed long enough. If they purposely leave out health issues in their guarantee it usually means they have had multiple puppies with that problem.

I also personally want to know what level of care a breeder gives to their own dogs. If they can't maintain the same standards you plan to maintain with your new puppy I wouldn't get a puppy from them - that means good food (if you plan to feed Innova - don't buy a puppy from a breeder who feeds Purina Dog Chow), good vet care, good grooming (if your breeder can't brush their dogs on a weekly basis, but you plan to...), good training (if they can't train their dogs, how do you know the puppy you get will be easily trainable), good socialization (if the breeder's dogs never leave the kennel, how do you know they make a good pet)... Don't be afraid to ask lots of questions. Keep in mind temperament is very inherited - AND your breeder is influencing your puppies early weeks. If you can't see yourself being friends with your breeder, run away.

Don't settle for really bad pictures of the parents or the puppy. Pictures used for advertising are a display of confidence in a breeder's program. If the dogs are poorly groomed, pictures blurry, from a distance... usually a good sign that the breeder has poor specimens of the breed. It is NOT hard to get nice pictures of a dog. If the best effort a breeder can give you is a shot they took, standing up, while the mother of the puppies is running through the yard, barely brushed... probably not a good indication of their standards in any area of their program. You don't need a professional photographer to get clear pictures of a nicely groomed dog - if the dog is well trained with good temperament this gets easier. If the breeder can't do a basic groom on their own dog... again, be weary of their standards. Good pictures speak louder than anything else. Don't accept excuses. It's NOT rocket science.

I've noticed a lot of "breeders" only offer a guarantee for "life threatening" genetic problems. I find that suspicious. The term "life threatening" can be subjective. If a dog has sever hip displasia, an owner and vet might conclude that euthanasia is the best option. Would HD be "life threatening" in that case? Either way there are many genetic problems that may not be "life threatening" but the sure are expensive to treat.

1. No refunds. EVER. For any reason.

Yeah, big no no...

2. No guarantee for pups with any form of diabetic problems.

I guess I've never run into this one... (have bred dachshunds for 7 years)

3. No guarantee for Coccidia.

I do not guarantee against coccidia. Simply for the reason that it can be brought on my stress, but not detectable in the vet visit. It's a simple 7 day treatment of albon...

4. No guarantee for Parvo.

I do guarantee against parvo within 14 days of leaving my house. Since parvo has a 14 incubation period... if the puppy were to get it within 14 days then I will know that it came from my place and, of course, take full responsibility. I always... ALWAYS... tell my customers to NOT let their puppy out of the car or on "foreign soil" (other than their back yard) until they are full vaccinated at 15 weeks

5. Have Nutrical on hand before the puppy arrives (WTH?)

Maybe to help with stress? This actually makes sense to me...

6. Repeated mentions of what happens in the event of a pups death.

I understand why you would question why the breeder put this in the contract. However, many breeders are simply trying to protect themselves and have gone so far as to have a lawyer type up the contract.

What is Nutrical? I am trying to find a reputable Basset Hound breeder in East Tennessee. The only experience I have with purchasing a dog is the shelter beagle I adopted. Also, I am a single parent without much money, and I think the idea of charging several hundred to thousands of dollars for puppys is horrific. It kind of reminds me of price gouging with gasoline prices!!!

bennyishome - keep in mind that price, from a good breeder, should reflect what the breeder puts into their breeding program. Testing for health problems in the parents is expensive and should be requirement for a responsible breeder (hip X-rays to submit to OFA run $75-250 depending on your area and vet - for example). You want your breeder to breeding dogs THEY bought for more than $300 (quality is not cheap). You want your breeder feeding a good food, providing good vet care (which is more than just shots and an annual check up if you're a responsible breeder - c-sections can run $1000-2000 in some areas), good grooming... think about what you spend on an annual basis on your own pets - now triple or quadruple that - and that's what most good breeders spend per dog.

You want a dog with good sound conformation from a knowledgeable breeder. That means they should show, compete in performance events, attend educational seminars, spend time and money researching their breed, health issues, structure, and they should belong to a kennel club, breed club, or training club...

It's not cheap to do things well - so several hundred dollars is not out of line for you to pay for a well bred puppy. Those puppies you see for $100-300... that's usually because the "breeder" puts absolutely nothing into their program. Your odds of paying huge vet bills, dealing with health and temperament problems, and having to put to sleep a young dog are a lot higher because these breeders don't really devote much time or energy into making sure what they are breeding is sound or healthy.

Breeding is kind of like building a house - if you want it to last, you need an intelligent contractor who is using good quality materials. This isn't cheap. If you want cheap and are okay with hiring your neighbor who likes to build things and is going to buy you discount materials, you'd better be okay with your house starting to fall apart a couple of years down the road and having plumbing problems right off the bat because the person building your home learned how to install it from a "How To" book...

Breeding isn't rocket science - but it's also not baking cookies. You can't throw out the burnt ones when you mess up and don't mix things correctly. You're dealing with living beings. If the breeder is flying by the seat of their pants, thinking it's a nice fun hobby... you're going to get A LOT of burnt cookies... If done correctly, there is A LOT of hard work and research that goes into it.

About Abbylynne's post.
I agree with all but the last paragraph:

Don't settle for really bad pictures of the parents or the puppy. Pictures used for advertising are a display of confidence in a breeder's program. If the dogs are poorly groomed, pictures blurry, from a distance... usually a good sign that the breeder has poor specimens of the breed. It is NOT hard to get nice pictures of a dog. If the best effort a breeder can give you is a shot they took, standing up, while the mother of the puppies is running through the yard, barely brushed... probably not a good indication of their standards in any area of their program. You don't need a professional photographer to get clear pictures of a nicely groomed dog - if the dog is well trained with good temperament this gets easier. If the breeder can't do a basic groom on their own dog... again, be weary of their standards. Good pictures speak louder than anything else. Don't accept excuses. It's NOT rocket science.

******
First of all, I know breeders (even those who show) who could NEVER
take a good photo. On most breeders pages you do not see pet photos, but show photos taken by professional photographers. Why in the world would bad photos represent the quality of the dogs or the breeder? Should people only buy from those who have show photograph's? I know many breeders of different breeds and they have multiple champions and they could not take a photograph if their life depended on it.
I seem to believe it very unfair to classify breeders in this way.
I am certain I am not the only one, I may be the only one here, but
if I go to a breeder who tells me NOT to buy from a breeder who can not take a good photo........I would run like the devil was on my tail.
Just my opinion.

I will never ever buy another dog without first seeing that puppy and where it was raised. I made the mistake of believing a breeder was decent based on her website and a few phone calls. I sent a deposit and waited till the pup was 8 wks old. They met me in a parking lot and handed me an underweight pup with earmites. I began having problems with her right away. She growled and snarled over her food. She would attack my other dogs over anything--unprovoked. She would not allow strangers to approach her. She snapped at children. An English Mastiff--gentle giant. We were part of 4 six week obedience classes. I walked her over 100 miles in parks. I took her to 2 vets seeking help and advise. The breeder would not even return my calls and has since had another litter of pups by the same parents 9 mo. apart. Never will I purchase another dog without going to see it first. Tragically we put this puppy down at 8 mo and 130 pounds before she killed one of my other dogs or mauled a neighbors child. If people would go see with their own eyes--puppy mills would go belly up.

I bet the diabetic thing has to do with hypoglycemia-low blood sugar in the little toy breeds.

whynot - I'm not talking about show photos being the standard for "good". I'm talking about those breeders you see who the only pictures they can send you of the parents are a dog standing in their yard, the photographer was standing up, and all you can see if a head with a tongue sticking out and a tail. I'm talking about a picture of a puppy that is so grainy and dark that while you can tell that there is a puppy there - you don't have the foggiest idea what the puppy REALLY looks like.

On the same level - if you visit a breeder and their dogs are not well groomed, are dirty, etc... it's the same concept. Pictures are part of how a breeder presents themselves.

Honestly, it is NOT hard to get a clear picture of a well groomed, well trained dog. Tell him/her to sit, and snap the picture. The buyer should be able to get a good idea what the parents look like if they can't see them in person. I stud most of my girls out - so often the sire is not on site. But most pet owners still want to see what he looks like. Why even offer a picture if it's bad quality?

You don't need to be a photographer to get a decent picture of a well groomed, well trained dog. If they are not either of those things, there is no good excuse.

And maybe it's different with my breed... most good Sheltie breeders don't just have show photos on our websites. We take the time to actually take decent pictures of our dogs. I have a cheap little point and shoot digital camera. I'm not a photographer by any means. I'm not even very patient. But I can groom my dogs, and they know when I say "stand" that they are supposed to stand. (so they can get the cookie).

I hope your post was encouraging people to meet the parents and puppies in person and not encouraging them to overlook bad pictures of badly groomed dogs...

My husband and I read this thread before getting Bacon, so thanks to everyone who has posted on this thread. We purchased Bacon through a local pet store and were able to meet the breeders personally and the parents. Although Bacon is a cross breed, (Pomchi, mom is purebred pom dad 50/50) we are very satisfied with our experience and our pup. I am in contact via phone, pet store (not a chain ie.,PetSmart) and email with the breeder. Bacon and his sisters were uh oh's and the mother has since been spayed. I hope all would be pet owners read this thread. Thanks

"We purchased Bacon through a local pet store"

I think you missed the whole purpose of this thread. Never ever will you see anyone here support puppymills aka pet shops.
Reputable breeders wa the intention of topic. Rescue is always wonderful as well.

I'm glad you love your pup though.

This is a good topic. Everyone has said a lot that I will not repeat. However, what about bad buyers? What about bad vets? I recently sold a pup to a man. This pup had a scrape on his shoulder blade. A small skin scrape that he got who knows where. It was healed and growing hair back when the man picked his pup up. He was told up front when it happened. His vet told him that was not a scrape but a burn. It WAS NOT a burn. I am not some puppy mill that slams heat lamps too close over litters in a cold shed. Nor do we hold lit cigars on our pups. However because this guy has DVM behind his name, I am now suspect.

I do not cover coccidia either. Or Kennel cough. Though my pups never see a kennel. Another story for you. Guy flies in to pick his pup up. Puppy was 10 weeks old, current on shots, fecal tested twice, negative, picture of health. Guy takes his pup home and proceeds to dress it up in cute little clothes and drags her everywhere. He then, a week later tells me she has fleas, coccidia. I have never had fleas, ever. Two weeks later he is screaming at me about kennel cough. Turns out this guy, in his misguided love and I hope pride in this pup, has had her on a whirl wind tour, every day, here and there. A TEN WEEK OLD PUP. He took her to work several days, then found a great doggy day care (where puppy was with 15 other dogs) and after they went to the dog park. This is a baby. It needs rest, routine, schedules and time to sleep. I have no idea what was in that day care or doggy park. That pup did not leave her with fleas, coccidia or KC. She would not have left if she had had any of those problems.

While I agree with everyone here about guarantees that sound like that one... we cannot move in with our pups. We do all we can to assure ourselves that people love the pup they get. BUT... that does not mean they do the right thing. I have a whole page on WHAT NOT TO DO. Many ignore me. I have no control over what they do when they get their pup home. Yet, if anything goes wrong, it is always the breeder. Never them and never bad vets who should not be practicing. It is us.

How about the woman I sold a pup to 3 years ago. We had many talks, she seemed very bright and willing to learn. I felt very good selling her a pup. She was told her 10 week old pup had had 2 parvo shots. That her pup needed more. For the first few weeks, to stay away from places where questionable dogs may go. 18 days after he left me to go to her, he had parvo. She was at me like I have never seen. MY FAULT. I said send me his vet records. I said parvo's longest incubation is 2 weeks. Fell on deaf ears. Her vet told her I must have skipped a shot. When I finally got the vet records, after threats of law suits, the pup had never had another shot, her vet liked to go every 3 weeks. I did a lot of research and found out her area was having horrible outbreaks of parvo in the fox and racoon. She took her pup to the woods several times. Is this my fault? That pup was current on shots. In the end I did win but she smeared me from one side of the internet to the other.

So puppy buyers need to take some responsibility too. I do everything I can to deliver a healthy, happy pup. They do not leave unless they are. But a buyer has to continue. They also need to realize that none of us have crystal balls and things do go wrong with live things.

The more contentious and sue happy puppy buyers get, the more the breeders need contracts to account for every possibility.

This post is so very helpful, thank you all. I'm considering a puppy as a playmate for my current American Eskimo/Sheltie mix.

Wel well well...look who's here!
I don't guarantee for Parvo. My puppies do not leave their whelping box usually until they're sold, I don't allow visitors to put puppies down on my floor, where the visitor's shoes may be contaminated, and until everything is bleached. I do not have parvo. And I'm not going to pay for someone who is careless about taking a puppy who knows where once they leave my house...But this is posted several times on my website, with warnings not to take puppies under 20 weeks old in public and if they do , to always hold the pup in their arms until the surface can be treated.

And the Nutrical is a darned good idea to have around for young pups, be you a breeder or buyer

Do you think the girl who had this problem would mind pming me the web address? I want to check itout and see if I know anyone who's dealt with them.

What do you guys think about saleing you a pup with one testicle? Should that be part of a gaurantee? Because I wasn't sold a pup that only had one testicle and when I called her back she said they cvan still mate with one.. But I really wanted him to have two should that fall into the gaurantee? What should I have done or what can I do?

Well, to the last post, if you are showing your dog as a male(if its a boy obviously) he needs to have 2 testicles. So, if your showing, its not good, if not your fine. and if your a breeder (breeding your dog?) you shouldnt breed him. because the world has enough backyard breeders.

Well.. One testicle..

The dog could only be sold as a pet.. NOT for breeding.. That simple not only is the dog not eligble for showing.. it is not a trait you want to contiue.. Also the retained testicle if it does not decend.. must be removed to prevent tumor formation on the testicle..

You should have placed the dog with a SPAY/NEUTER contract as a pet only.. That simple.. If you sold the dog with "unlimited" rights.. Not as a pet only and the buyer was under the impression he may be able to breed the dog....then the owner has EVERY RIGHT to be upset.. it is pretty obvious this is the case.. not somting the other vet should discover.. yes there are some VERY rare cases of testicles that go back and forth in young dogs.. but very rare.. if it is missing now.. it was missing the day the dog left.. and if it is a very rare case of one "diapearing" then you are required to provide the owner with some compensation/replacement if the dog was sold with "breeding" rights..it is a disqualifying fault.. so MUST be covered in a dog sold with breeding rights.. your choice as to how you will handle it.. Reguardless the dog "should" be neutered if it not there by 6 months and NOT bred if it is not decended either.. your reposiblity as breeder to ensure this.. the dog IS not show or breeding quality.. only a pet..

Keep in mind you sold a dog with a defect that will cost the owner more to get fixed.. at least offering a paritial refund to cover the additional cost of the surgery.. or a refund in the diffrence between your show/pet price would be considered ethical.. It does fall under health issues one should warentee..


Amanda