Being that you do not know me, I cannot expect you to believe me nor does it actually matter. Bacterial infections are quite rapid on a head halter due to the saliva and licking the dog does on a normal basis. These natural bacteria get caught up and soaked in to the nylon which actually causes a much more rapid infection than the random person that actually leaves on a pinch collar way too tight to cause the metal points a constant contact to the skin. Which in this case would cause the bacterial infection.
If you don't believe me in which I suspect you don't. Then conduct a scientific experiment where one dog wheres a head collar on and is used and the other one wears a pinch collar on way too tight and is used. Two or more objective persons will need to be available to consistently observe what is going on and see which collar causes a bacterial infection sooner.
That is because you are evidently ignorant on dog training and scientific reasoning.
Which in itself ignorance is not bad at all, just when you are ignorant and arguing with those more knowledgeable than you and and trying to say you are more knowledgeable than then more knowledgeable person is. I am happy to help anyone that knows less and happy to learn from those that know more. After all, it is a fact that no one knows everything.
So what kind of training collar would you recommend to an ignorant client? Every time I recommend a pinch collar I always tell them that it is a training collar and not a house collar. To take it off every time they are not walking their dog.
VON, you are making no sense here. I have bred and raised dogs for 16 years now and I have never even considered this "training" method. Maybe people use it but you won't catch me doing it. I'm old fashioned I guess but this just seems like a dumb topic here.
Friends will step in when the rest of the world steps out.
I can't imagine you using a pinch collar on a Boston Terrier so I perfectly understand where you are coming from. However, not every dog is like a Boston Terrier. LIke I said before, each dog is an individual that requires a unique training experience. I can't imagine having to put a pinch collar on a King Charles Spaniel, but you never know! You might just get an odd ball one of these days. However, a Golden Retriever, Lab, GSD, Pointers, etc. etc. are often high drive dogs. Most often the people that buy a Lab or Golden have NO idea how a dog thinks let alone the different breeds and how each are suppose to be specific to temperament. Not many people will know that an European GSD is totally different in conformation and temperament than an American GSD. No training regime works for every dog.
And when one of your dogs looks at you after a command and doesn't obey then what? Do you realize that a dog or wolf pack thrives off of correction and praise or being apart of a family? Most people would be shocked at the scars and skin taken off dogs and wolves in packs. That is just the way it is.
I would never suggest someone who has no clue as to how to use a pinch collar buy one, thats for damn sure. How about instead of telling these people "here take the easy way out" you help them to train their dog. Give them actual training suggestions, websites, not a crutch.
Even though I have suggested websites or given my opinion on how a person can best solve an issue, people still fail. The pinch collar is not harmful. As I said many times before, ANY training collar is as evil as the person controlling it. If I suggested a head collar and the person corrected their dog and put its neck out of wack then it is more evil than a pinch collar. Sadly, you cannot help most people. As the old saying goes, you can only help those that want to be helped.
If we were comparing trainers experience, knowledge and credibility based on posts here. My money would be on Gynny every time.
A pinch collar is a lazy personas way out of true training. It IS possible to train a dog to heel (or walk beside you without pulling) without inflicting pain or discomfort. Using fear of pain is never the way to train any dog. And while I am not one to throw the 'moron' term around....anyone who would even consider a pinch collar on a Maltese, perfectly fits the description.
Pyr raises her hand from the back of the classroom...umm...ohh...pick me!
Who in heaven's name would keep a Halti on their dog 24/7???? That would require a whole new level of stupidity!
If that's the case (24/7), I'd say the dog is pretty well doomed to a pretty miserable life, leash aside. Von, do you wear your seatbelt when you're at the dining room table or sitting on the sofa? Makes just as much sense.
You obviously don't "get" that you deal with a whole range of experience levels on this site. Those who "wrote the book" and others who are still trying to figure out where to find the book.
I would NEVER suggest to inexperienced/1st time pet owners that they begin with a choke or pinch collar BEFORE they attempted the basics. The head harness is a very simple and gentle way of both pet and owner to understand that where the head goes, the body follows.
Are there cases where a pinch collar will be they only method of controlling a large or head strong animal? Certainly. But how about letting the inexperienced owner start with a manageable method, then if it doesn't work seek out someone in real life who can evaluate both owner and dog and then determine the best method to train both?
BTW, the boy I trained with the Halti was around 3 when we adopted him from the shelter. He weighed in at roughly 120 - 125 pounds and stood well over a foot taller then me when standing upright. So, he was no longer a pup, had never been trained, weighed as much as me and had far more strength than I had. Will the head harness work for everyone? No. Is a pinch collar always the first & best answer? No.
"Some days you're the dog; some days you're the hydrant". author unknown
Ok..... I have read this entire thread and have come to the conclusion that "Von" is most likely one of those "tools" that believes in old school training..... yes like hanging a dog into submission for a correction..... yes the old ignorant school of training as is the prong collar. No intelligent person would EVER leave ANY choke, prong, halti on a dog 24/7 period!
Gunny here can run circles around you and I personally take offense to your ignorant remarks! I personally have trained for show Novice - Utility and some tracking. I also have many many years ago worked at a dog academy. That is where I witnessed first hand shock collars, hanging and other barbaric ways of training for a "quick fix" solution. I reported them imediately and left. So please spare yourself the embarrassing drama you are bringing on to yourself. I am sure your mentor was one of the Joe Dallas caliber of dog trainers too. So seriously you are not impressing anyone here and I think that is pretty clear.
So you might want to zip it and learn something. Oh but that's right you know it all....
11/3/2002 - 6/3/2008 RIP Haley, my life was forever touched by yours, which was far, far too short...
OK Von, the vast majority of people who have responded to this thread are very experienced dog owners. They've raised, trained, rehabed and/or competed with dogs. You've been here two weeks and I haven't seen a single pic of your dogs, you haven't mentioned your dogs and you haven't listed any qualification or titles you've earned. Yet you show up and start calling people "ignorant!" Not a great way to make a good impression.
Um, every halti and gentle leader I've seen for sell comes in a box, w/ instructions. Some even come with a video. I've never seen a pinch or slip collar either one that came with any instructions. So there you go! All dogs/owners are different and there is no single tool or training method that helps them all.
It's really sad, ruffian, but IMO I believe you have just described the average dog owner. Using your statement as a yardstick, I would hazard a guess that only about 1/10 of all dog owners could qualify as an average dog owner. That would leave 90% of the dog owners identified as morons who should have never gotten a dog in the first place because they think "fluffy" will grow up and be perfect. IMO that IS the definition of your average dog owner.
vonKalifornien, I agree with you. I've been there because I didn't always know about training a dog. People forget that not everyone is like them - dogs and methods of dealing with dogs are viewed differently in every community in the United States. I am a product of my region and regional attitudes toward dogs, but I learned young because my parents raised and showed Scottish Terriers. IMO there are many people in this civilized country of ours who just love dogs. They want a dog. They want an obedient dog. They work, they have families, they have a social life, their kids have baseball, ballet, soccer, theatre, football, practice, practice, practice. They don't have time to train a dog. They don't want to train a dog. But the darn dog pulls when they finally get the time to go for walks and it's a hassle. They don't know how to stop it. They have no clue what they are doing. And what's a dog trainer? No one has money for that even if they knew what one actually does. But they do sell those collars at the local 5 & Dime store. You buy a dog, you buy a leather collar and a leash - everyone knows that. They love dogs. They want a dog. They want an obedient dog. They put a choke collar on it and if the dog still pulls, they get a prong collar. Do they know about the possible dangers any of the collars pose to their beloved pet? No. Why would they - if they sell them, they must be safe. Do the collars come with instructions and cautions? No. How hard can it be to use it? You put it on the dog and if he pulls, he'll yelp and it will stop him. Success. Money well spent.
My point is that there are many people in many places who don't know or even care about training dogs. They think if you put a collar on one and the two of you go for a nice walk, he's a good dog and he's trained. If he gives you trouble, he's a bad dog. I knew people like this. They should never own a dog to be sure but it's what they know. The collar is a quick fix as vonKalifornien said and it's what, IMO, the average uneducated (in dog handling) dog owner uses. Now if they would just put instructions and warnings on the packaging, it would save a lot of dogs from unnecessary harm.
Ok but would you, if you worked in a pet store, suggest to these people to buy a prong collar? People who have no idea as to how to use them or the harm the can cause, because THAT is what von is championing for.
Sorry - was catching up on the 2 pages you guys have done since I last looked.
To answer your question - No, I would not recommend it. I don't know them, I don't know their dog and I am not a trainer. If they truly needed a collar, I would suggest a lightweight collar since IMO it is benign, show them how to fit it and caution them about jerking the lead. I would then suggest training classes and let the trainer suggest collars, etc. since they would observe the dog, know its needs and could explain the proper use and cautions of the choke or prong if those were needed. I didn't buy my first choke or prong until I enrolled my GSD in classes and they were required. I have to add that whenever she seemed to 'forget' to heel properly over the years since, all I had to do was put the prong on her and she immediately got on track just by its touch even though she had never really "experienced" it.