Allrighty then. So 9/11 was basically a game of insurance fraud by Port Authority, who also sent planes to crash into the US Capitol and the Pentagon at the same time? So the insurance fraud wouldn’t be too obvious? Now it makes perfect sense.
I will not state my opinion on 9/11. I don't think all the blame of 9/11 happening needs to be placed on Bush. Clinton was in office a lot of years and it has been shown (don't have a link off hand) that Clinton knew attacks were gonna be made against this country. What did he do to stop it? Bush had only really been in office a year or less when this happened (right ?) so how can all the blame be laid on him?
If you want an interesting take on 9/11 check this site out:
Once again....what does any of that matter now? What does any of that do for bringing back those lost on that day and everyday since then? What does that have to do with how unsafe we feel? What does that do for the soldier that is dying right now miles away?
For heaven sakes.....regardless of who's fault it is, the damage is done and there is no point in focusing on the past, when the here and now, as well as the future of this country, the world stands to face a blicker faith.
Traumma, to answer your question on why the twin towers collapsed the way that they did I think I can help with.
I watched a show on the construction of the World Trade Centers (I believe on the history channel) and after the first attack on them in 93, they changed the construction a bit to better sustain future attacks.
They did not however build those buildings, to take a hit from a commuter plane traveling at those speeds, hitting those towers the way they did.
Those planes took out A LOT of major support beams. Add to that jet fuel, and intense fire making the steel heat and become brittle.
Of course there would not be any large remains after the buildings collapsed. Have you watched the movie World Trade Center yet? It explains that only 20 people were pulled out of debris alive.
The lucky few that did get rescued, had to endure dozens upon dozens of surgeries.
This topic is nightmare. What in the hell does it have to do with pets anyway? This crap is invading my happy thoughts/relax time. Enough is enough. Are we really as catty as this? Aren't there other things to discuss in the world? These pin heads are getting famous and immortalized by things just like this in TV, Newspapers, damn dinner debates and now chalk up terrific pets!
I am locking myself in the basement, wake me up when America has moved on to the next big thing.
I live in the woods, in Yukon Canada. Obviously, you (most) all know a lot more about 9/11 than I do, and probably ever will. It is one subject that I refuse to talk about, because eventhough I'm not an American, have only been a few times other than Alaska, didn't even lose anyone to this terrible tragedy, it still upset me. It chokes me up, tears me up inside, to know that ANY human (regardless of who was to blame, who was in office, who hated america, or whatever) was and is capable of this type of behaviour.
I don't know what type of leader Bush is. My views on politics remain as far as the news can take me, and I choose not to watch them. In all honesty, American politics BORE ME. It's the same story every term. And it seems like the best candidate is always the one with the least votes. Or people change their minds. Or there's too much controversy for anyone to form an opinion.
Propaganda does not just give people negative views on a president. It can be the basis for people having positive views as well. As a matter of fact, that's ALL it is. Who is to say that everything being promised to Americans by their president is honest and truthful? You are running off the media. Just by reading this thread, it seems he is criss-cross in his ways, so you can't go by his actions. But again, that's just going on what Ive read. But that's what propaganda, MEDIA, has drilled into my head. That, and countless stories from American citizens who are unhappy. My own neighbours moved here from Seattle, because they felt things were just too degrading to them. They tell me endlessly how they feel ashamed that they left, and they would've felt ashamed to have stayed. When I met them, they even apologized to me once, out of the complete darkness, because of what happened in Halifax. I, in turn, apologized to them for what happened in Halifax, and told them not to even worry about me, because I could give to cents to every conversation, and there's still just a 1% chance it will be taken into consideration, so there's no point to be interested in it anyway.
I agree with the repeating history statement but I refuse to be pushed into some little paranoid corner. Questioning every horrible thing that happened (My name is not Gil Grissom and life cannot be solved neatly in an hours time, including commercial breaks) waiting until the next horrible thing to happen...
I will keep my mouth shut, endure and try to make a different when it comes time for elections in 2008 hopefully making a difference with a vote.
Those that believe what they believe, will continue to do so....just as I am sure no one could change your mind or beliefs.
I feel it is disrespectful to those who fight or have died for our country doing what they believe in, without complaining or questioning, for us...to question these things ourselves.
Now, I will go blow my FREE American time, giving some attention to some creatures really deserving of it while I am still blessed with the time on this earth to do so...and stop giving in to the negative vibes being thrown around in this thread. God Bless America.
***Edited By: pope1982 on 1/2/2007 2:23:48 PM*** Reason: ...
I respect everything you said.....It is true that we get much of this fed to us thru the media...
It is up to each and every one of us to decide what we believe....not to be TOLD what to believe....
Wish I was up there with ya!!
I dont believe it is disrespectful to question anything and I do not feel I am disrespecting MY son, who leaves to go to Kuwait in less than 30 days, in finding out the whys and what fors we are over there...
I feel quite the opposite, that it RESPECTS all involved to find out WHY?
I aint a sheeple (not saying anyone here is) and I dont believe in everything I hear on the news. I have eyes, and a brain and I will come to my own conclusions.
***Edited By: TraumaMamma on 1/2/2007 2:29:09 PM*** Reason: add
I was going to stay out of this but has anyone thought about WHY Bush has not helped this country(your words not mine)?? Have you all listened to yourselves? Have you looked at the U.S. lately? When was the last time you watched the news and EVERY single story was good..... no murders, no robberies, no kidnappings, no hijackings...etc.
Why is this country worth helping? This country is becoming EXTREMELY ungrateful! This country was always thought of as Free and it was something that people fought to try to get here to experience it, it was something that men and women were proud to go and fight for our country, just to give all the 'normal people' and their children that freedom, it was something everyone here was once proud of, that we had a country unlike any other because we EARNED it!!!
Now, it is taken as a given. Freedom is NOT FREE. It comes at a high cost and people seem to forget that. Sometimes I am embarrased of this country. How greedy and selfish it has become.
So, many people hate the way things are being run? What are YOU doing about it? I am glad that Saddam is dead. No man(if you can call him that) like that deserves to live. Keeping him alive would have been worse on us then him getting killed. Do you really think his followers would have allowed him to sit in a cell forever??
I honestly think that this entire world is pathetically immature. It reminds me of children fighting over toys. Except they are doing it over land. When right now, there are FAR more crucial things that are more important then who owns or rules which piece of land. We are in the midst of global warming and have the potential to have MASSIVE deadly changes within 50 years. If you have not watched the movie 'An Inconvenient Truth', then you MUST watch it. My DH and I are strong advocates of living green and trying to save this planet(so people can continue to fight like children for many years to come *rolls eyes*)
So, this is my opinion, you don't have to agree..... it is JUST my opinion.
As an Israeli, I should probably stay out of this discussion as my feelings about Iraq and Sadam are extremely biased. I will be the first one to admit it.
Sadam have called for the distraction of Israel since before I was born. He supplied terrorist with arms and money that were use against civilian population to kill thousands. He supported and encouraged suicide bombers to blow themselves up in crowded restaurants, movie theater, nightclubs and buses by paying their families a small fortune for each attack. During the first gulf war, he lunched scud missiles at Israeli cities with the sole purpose of killing civilians and dragging Israel in to the conflict. Israel already took down Sadam’s nuclear power plant setting him back for decades. Had they not done it, he would have had nukes long time ago and would have surely used it against iran during their war. There wouldn’t be any countries daring to join the coalition against iraq in the first gulf war had sadam had nukes. People like that don’t have nukes just for show. He would have taken Kuwait and probably Saudia Arabia unopposed and control a huge chunk of the world oil suplly. He would have been a threat to every one in the region, especially Israel. If he had them he would have eventually used them. If not himself then they could have easily “somehow” ended up in the hands of terrorists who would like nothing more then to set one off in Washington. Which btw are the exact same reason why Iran can never be allowed to have Nukes. They would be used one way or another.
If the US hadn’t dealt with Iraq and Sadam, sooner or later Israel would have had to take matters in to its own hands again. That would have triggered a war on a much grander scale dragging other countries including the US in to the conflict and cost many many more lives. So although I am sorry for all the American lives that were lost, I am glad the US got rid of that problem first. Sadam was evil incarnate and he had to go.
I do think though that the US should have left Iraq a long time ago. They went it, took down the government, destabilize the country, made sure they no longer have WMD and got rid of Sadam. Mission accomplished. They should have pulled out shortly after and let them kill each other. The more they kill, the less we all have to worry about later. It would have taken them years to be a threat again as a country. Heartless, I know. But that is how that culture is. When you got religious fanatics on both sides who just KNOW that god is on their side and they do his will, this mentality will never change, no matter what you do. The only one that can stop it is a tyrant like sadam and other dictators in the region. Democracy can never truly work in that region of the world as long as there are different religious believes. It is just not compatible with Islam. Unfortunately, as long as we need their oil, the US will not leave any time soon with out making sure the oil will keep flowing.
On the bright side, As soon as alternatives to oil like fuel cells, ethanol, solar, electric, and others will become more widely spread and we wont need their oil anymore, no one will care what is going on in that corner of the world anymore. Just as no one cares about the various African conflicts.
As for the 911 conspiracies, I won’t even dignify them with a reply. It reminds me of those people who have undeniable and in disputable confirmed facts and evidence that the holocaust never happened. Just face it. 19 Muslim Arabs affiliated with al-Qaeda, at the direction of Osama Bin Ladin, another Muslim Arab, hijacked 4 plans and crashed them in to the WTC and the pentagon killing about 3,000 innocent Americans. These are the facts you should be focused on. All the rest is irrelevant. Hind site is 20/20. Pointing fingers won’t change those facts.
To everyone who thinks Bush shouldn't have gone to war after 9/11... if you were the president what would you have done after 9/11???? Would you have just stood there and said, "oh..it's okay that you killed thousands of our people, we hate our president anyway...blah blah blah."
I don't think any one of you would just stand there and take a beating.
***Edited By: puppylove519 on 1/2/2007 4:44:54 PM*** Reason: change
Most will claim Saddam has had this coming to himn since the last Bush was in office, and even beforehand. If Saddam were being charged with 9/11 responsibilities, do you think he'd have been hung in Iraq? Doesn't make much sense. ;)
I'm not sure anymore that this thread is appropriate for these forums. It was bound to cause a lot of emotion and anger, and I don't particularly like to see people here arguing about anything like this--
As far as the topic at hand, you can throw any consipiracy theory at me that you want, and you can blame anyone you want to blame aside from the terrorists, and you can throw any links at us you want to try to make it look like something other than what it was (and that some crazy guy took credit for) but all I know is that one day I drove down the highway, and could see those two towers were there filled with people who showed up to do their job, from all nationalities, from all sorts of countries, from many different religious backgrounds, all alive.
The next day I drove down it, and instead of those two towers, all that was left were clouds of black smoke signaling the fact that thousands of innocent lives had been taken including my own friends, and after that, I could not drive past that point of the highway without crying and feeling that horrible sense of utter loss that I felt after the terrorist attack as I sat on my couch for days on end, not even getting up to take a shower or eat, just knowing that somehow all of those people would be alive somehow or that it would end up to be some horrible nightmare.
Lives were lost, still being lost, and will continue to be lost. Every day. Whether it's from side effects for those who showed up to help at the World Trade center, or those who are fighting a war that no one will ever agree on. Finger pointing, accusations, and fighting with friends on a message board geared towards pet owners...it's not going to change a thing.
We may never understand why that happened. We may never understand the things that have gone on since then or agree with them, but let me just say that there's enough fighting going on elsewhere in the world, let's not bring the political BS here to these boards.
This sort of anger and emotion just isn't suitable for this forum, and I hope that people can take a step back from this thread, and take a deep breath before continuing a war here on this thread.
***Edited By: Lorrix on 1/2/2007 7:29:23 PM*** Reason: kk
It's easy enough to skip over an OT topic. I feel like I know people a little better when something important happens and they feel comfortable and safe saying how they feel about it. People might feel like I'm nuts, I might return the compliment, and mostly I feel like I know a little better where they're coming from on the pet posts. Like on the dangerous-dog-law thread about the new Louisville ordinance. If someone has outed themselves as being way more liberal or conservative than I am, it tells me what I need to know not to poke them by accident.
I beileve that that if we all just stur up the past and keep fighting about it then it just effects the future. I personaly think that saddam's dead it wasn't a hux. if you think it was well then your a fool. he was trialed. he was convicted and he was hanged end of that. now that we got that out of the way we now need to start paying attention to the other problems like osama bin latin.
wars will happen. because freedom isn't free.
and I do agree with PuppyLove519 they are right. most people can't make the dissions to go to war. and if you don't like what our presedent is doing for this country well I say that you need to do something about it. don't just talk about it.
bush isn't a bad presedant he has been doing all he can do with the recorces that we have.