ok, if prescription diets are made of crap, then why do i have to pay $40 a bag? look at these ingredients! Ground Whole Grain Corn, Brewers Rice, Dried Egg Product, Chicken By-Product Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Pork Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Soy Fiber, Dicalcium Phosphate, Chicken Liver Flavor, Iodized Salt, Potassium Citrate, Choline Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride, Soybean Oil, vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Taurine, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), Ethoxyquin (a preservative).
cooper's stomach DOES NOT tolerate diet change . what should i do? his stomach was damaged when i got him and further damaged when he ate japanese yew. i hate to think i am not providing him with the nutrients he needs, especially for how much i pay!
Indifference turns clarity into denial. ~Quan Tracy Cherry
thanks wandering spirit. i will start mixing that food in tomorrow. i can't believe that the vet suggested i keep him on this stuff indefinitly! he said to just "throw an egg in there now and again." i mean, it is the ONLY thing he's tolerated, but i can't understand why! my god, i feel ill just LOOKING at the ingredients! and MAYBE this is why i continually question his bristly coat and lack of weight gain... grrr. time to get this puppy on something better. thanks for writing this topic.
Indifference turns clarity into denial. ~Quan Tracy Cherry
Thank you Wandering and HuskyHauler for all of the great info! Also just out of curiosity how much money and time do you guys spend on the RAW diet? I just find it hard to belive that it is cheaper than buying kibble as Soulmate has suggested! Thanks
A lot of people can't se how it is cheaper. But, our local butcher does not use MOST of the meat he has. We get a great discount. Just make sure your butcher is clean. There are a few places that supply specifics for dogs that eat raw, but I don't know how prominent they are on your area. Raw recently became popular in my area, so the price has gone up just a little because more breeders/kennels and owners are looking for the best scrap meat. My food is more expensive because I implement veggies and fruits that are organically grown.
In one sweep of buying everything new, I'd say I spend around $140 and it lasts me a few weeks. I suggest you get a grinder and a very large freezer if you intend to feed this anytime in the future. You will be amazed at what you can do.
Also, I have 17 dogs, and only feed their kibble during their performance time. There's another reason it is more expensive for me (but considering where I live and the amount of dogs I have, cheap).
To be honest, I feed my girl Wal-Mart brand. I had a collie to live 12 years on it and was in good shape, so why change? Now if she got sick with eating it and the vet suggested something else then I would use that.
I agree with HH - I THOUGHT my dogs did fine on Science Diet. When I switched to the Holistic Eagle Pack and then Canidae I was shocked at the difference - and it was visable. Your dogs won't die on Walmart brand - but they could be healthier on something else. And you'll spend about the same amount of money in the long run (not per bag or pound, but per month).
And BTW Soulmate - there is NO corn in the Holistic Eagle Pack... I just checked MY pamphlet... The regular Eagle Pack has it - the Holistic does not.
And domesticated dogs are NOT wild dogs. There is no comparison other than they are semi related like we're related to monkeys... Maybe a little more closely.
Wild dogs are too subject to the same diseases that dogs have... they just die earlier from them. The average life span of wild canids is less than 5 years. A lot of that is from disease or parasites, but if you are saying a wild dog eating meat has it better than a domesticated dog that eats a quality kibble simply because he gets to eat raw meat, you're smoking some good stuff. That same wild dog still has an incredibly high chance to die from disease or parasites.
I personally can barely find time to prepare food for myself and my family. I don't have the room for a large freezer to store raw meat in... there's not a butcher within 30 miles of where I live.
I'm sorry but I don't believe that raw food is a panacea against all dog ailments and diseases. Genetics has far more to do with them than food. I dont' think anything is, in fact. And I do agree, feeding a dog the wrong amount of meat vs vegetables in a raw diet can indeed cause problems. I agree with it because I've seen it happen, that's my proof right there.
And yes, we humans don't obsess about our food and food ingredients. Which is why so many humans have diet related health problems. ----------------------------------------------------------- If wild dogs have a shorter lifespan than our pet dogs it is, as you said, due to parasites and lack of veterinary care; fleas, worms, mange, ticks etc etc. Their shorter lifespan is certainly not dietary related. So if a wild dog was treated for all those parasites that I have mentioned above then I could say, in all confidence, that they would in fact have it better. It goes without saying that just because people feed a RAW diet to their dog doesn't mean that they forego treatment for parasites, lol. All dogs are prone to these parasites irrespective of what they're fed. Have you ever wondered why cats that have turned feral become twice the size of a pet cat? the reason is simply because they are privy to a raw diet and not some dry kibble. If you truly believe all the propoganda generated by the pet food industry then you are a little too trusting; you wouldn't want to bet your life on all that is being said; as I said, ingredients used are literally toxic and not recommended for human consumption because they mainly consist of tumurous lumps of meat that still contain high levels of cancer-causing hormones. Tell me Miniyar...do you honestly believe that they use quality cuts of meat in pet foods? do you really believe that they use quality vitamins and minerals?
As far as not having any room to store a deep chested freezer, man such a freezer doesn't take all that much space and it isn't difficult to acquire one, you could even acquire a second-hand freezer in good working condition. As far as being 30 miles away from a butcher...well I can appreciate that but that is why I suggested that meat could be purchased in bulk and stored in a freezer and you could make a point of purchasing meat for the dogs when you go to purchase meat for yourself and your family. When I first moved here I was not aware that we had a chicken wholesaler so I was travelling 80 kms every week to get the raw meat and I purchased a freezer especially for them and such a freezer takes very little space.
As far as trying to get the right ratio of meat versus vegetables - this does not take a scientist; dogs are primarily carnivores and hence only require a small amount of vegetable matter in their diet and this veg. matter has to be crushed and well cooked otherwise it will go through the dog completely undigested.
It's one thing to prefer to adopt a speedy way of feeding a dog but I really do feel that such individuals need not try to justify such a preferance with all kinds of excuses, I do admire people that are honest enough to come out and say that they would much rather get the feeding of their dog over and done with in no time, lol. No excuses entered into, lol. If a person is truly determined to feed RAW then nothing would seem like too much trouble; at the end of the day it's a case of "to each their own."
Thank you Wandering and HuskyHauler for all of the great info! Also just out of curiosity how much money and time do you guys spend on the RAW diet? I just find it hard to belive that it is cheaper than buying kibble as Soulmate has suggested! Thanks - KLKRIEG. -----------------------------------------------------
Well, I'm glad you appreciate my help also! It seems like some people do not want to see the light even though it may be shining brightly directly in their face.
Are you implying that I am a liar since you are implying that you are finding it hard to believe that feeding RAW is cheaper than kibble??? I have 18 dogs and I am not made of money so if feeding kibble was the best way to go I would not have had 18 dogs as I want to make sure that my dogs are fed the best possible foods and kibble is far more expensive than RAW. If I had to feed a so-called "premium" kibble I would need a large bag every single day so do your maths and come up with what the total amount would be at the end of the week!!! Commonsense prevail. I would be up for hundreds of dollars every single week, not to mention the stink that would be lurking around the property even though I am diligent enough to pick up after them every other day!!! If you prefer to adopt a speedy way of feeding your dog then, by all means, stick to a kibble diet...but if you opt to truly believe all their propoganda then you are too naive for your own good. Your dog, your responsibility ;)
The feral cats in my area of the country are not the size of pet cats, they're about 2/3 the size of them. And they spend a LOT of time scrounging for food in dumpsters. They eat anything they can get their little paws on.
It is not true that dogs cannot digest raw vegetables. They digest most vegetables nearly as well as humans do. Many people I know feed raw green beans and carrots for snacks. The vegetables dogs don't digest well are higher in cellulose (corn is an excellent example of this), which is indigestible by any animal that is not a ruminant (IE, cows, deer, rabbits).
I am not simply making excuses, if there were a butcher up the road I still wouldn't feed raw because I don't agree with feeding raw. If we have so little room in our house that our 2nd bathroom has become a storage room, when I saw that we do not have room for a deep freeze freezer, I mean it. We live in a very small 2 bedroom house.
And just because you do feed raw, doesn't mean you need to be belittling people who choose not to do so and saying we are 'making excuses'. I do not believe all the propaganda tossed out by the pet food industry, but I also don't believe all the propaganda thrust at me by raw food proponents either.
And as an aside, I find it ironic that you claim to be so careful about what goes into your dog's mouth, but took no care at all when it came to keeping her safe and protected when she went into heat so she got bred by the neighbor's dog.
Never trust a tall dwarf... he's lying about something.
Natures Variety and Innova Evo are suppose to be close to raw...
Right now I am feeding my dogs raw again. They have had reactions to different foods... Canidea "which is suppose to be one of the better foods out there" and Pedigree "on the lower end". They did awesome on Purina One... I cant remember about the other foods, but over all I liked the Purina One (there coats, teeth, etc was almost like they were on raw again).
Soulmate.. Why is that you think everyone here is against you and willing to start a fight in every post? I did thank everyone as you can see in this post!
Thank you everyone for your replies! HuskyHauler, Do you know the name of the raw kibble? I would like to research that. I did put him on Natures Choice for right now. He is not eating much at all, so i don't know if he just doesn't like it or i am used to him eating so much more. He previously ate about 7 cups a day! Within 24 hours of this new food, he has only ate a couple cups! I have noticed he hasn't been asking to go out as much!
I don't think i can do raw food right now, i just don't have the time! I have 3 birds already that i have to cut and prepare fruits and veggies for everyday, and then trying to take care of the 3 kids and all of thier activities. It is just not something I want to attempt right now.
xboxerx Thanks for the website, I enjoyed it very much and have bookedmarked it for future reference!
Also, Thanks to those that have replied! I really appreciate the Help and advice!
I would also like to add that i checked in to a place that will do raw dinners for your dog and deliver to you! According to his weight it would cost me about 100.00 a week. Now granted I know that it would not cost this much if i did it by meself, But i just don't have the time. Written by KLKRIEG
The reason I rethanked HH and Wandering is because they answered another question about the RAW kibble. Which i would be interested in researchig and possibly changing too. nd Yes I find it hard to believe that feeding RAW would be cheaper, hence which is why i asked them to get second and third opinion.. because it is not just your opinion that matters here. I like to gather all the facts, not just by one person! And as i stated in an earlier post, i found a website that would do RAW ( i believe it was barfdirect.com) and deliver it to you but, it was 100.00 a week for them to do it. I know it would be cheaper for me to do it. But even if cost me 30.00 a week it is still more than kibble.. seeing as how i only go through about 50 pounds a month or less. SO NO I CAN'T SEE HOW IT WOULD BE CHEAPER FOR ME.
And quite frankly, i didn't like that fact that you implied that i am not determined to feed my dogs the best but not doing RAW.. SEE YOUR POST
It can be practical if someone is determined enough. Buy in bulk and store meat in a freezer. It is cheaper to feed RAW and dogs will thank you for it. Some people say that they cannot bear to handle raw meat, I can't understand this as these same people routinely handle meat for their own or their family's consumption. I know quite a few vegetarian families that feed their dog/s RAW even though they never eat meat themselves. Where there is a will there is a way. I know that nothing beats the speed of opening a bag of kibble, adding some to a bowl and voila the dog is fed, lol. Feeding RAW takes just a little more time but once you become accustomed to feeding RAW you will find that it isn't all that arduous. It's a personal decision.- Written by soulmate.
If you would have read my first post, I simply said I don't want to feed RAW and any other suggestions would be appreciated.
I can appreciate the fact that you feed RAW. IF you have the time to do so great, but why do you have to be so condensing on me because I don't and choose not too! Hence your post below..
Well, I'm glad you appreciate my help also! It seems like some people do not want to see the light even though it may be shining brightly directly in their face. written by soulmate
You know you take everything said here that if they don't agree with you they are wrong. And you want to start argument all the time and quite frankly, I just don't understand it. How can you take a simple subject about dog food and start an argument. Everyone has their own opinion and they were doing what I asked them to help with... which was to give advice on a dog KIBBLE.. not RAW, as again stated in my first post.
Again, Thank you for you time everyone on helping me to find the best Kibble for my dog. I will check into the RAW based kibble and probably switch him to that! His coat definetly could use some work!
***Edited By: klkrieg on 2/6/2007 4:44:36 PM*** Reason: *
agentcooper - my dog thunder has a horribly sensitive stomach also. anytime i switch foods on him he has terrible diarrhea. he also has such a sensitive system all around that he cannot even take heartworm medication without getting very very sick. for the longest time i fed him the proplan sensitive skin and stomach food. he did exceptionally well on that food and never had an issue. well it got a little nuts here trying to feed 3 dogs 3 different brands of food so i switched them all to one food .... CANIDAE chicken and rice formula. i did a very gradual change with all 3 of them and thunder never developed any problems on this food once he was on it full time. so, that may be another option for you also. the pro plan is much better than the food you listed, which i can tell is produced by hills and science diet just by the disgusting ingredients. the canidae food is much better than the pro plan even so thats another option for you to try.
i used to feed scout and salty the raw based kibble diet EVO. it is similiar to the atkins diet for humans and most dogs will lose a bit of weight on it. scout lost a good 5 pounds while on that food. she needed to, but if you already have a dog that you are trying to put weight onto, it might not work well. salty acted like a starving lunatic on that food. she would beg borrow and steal to eat everything in sight. so there was something not agreeing with her system with that food. i have also heard of a lot of dogs increasing their water intake to 3X what they normally drank while on the EVO. i had not had that problem with my dogs. i have since taken them off that diet, because another thing that really bothered me was the high protein content. i have large/giant breeds and it has been ingrained in my brain for so many years that high protein content is not good for large/giant breeds of dogs. plus my dogs are not that active so they wouldnt need such a high protein diet. if they were active working dogs i may feel differently about feeding them it.
RAW is very expensive to feed compared to kibble. at least in my area. i can get a 40 LB bag of canidae for 34 dollars and feed 3 dogs for almost a month. pricing out RAW, i would be spending close to three times that in a month. so i supplement with raw. once or twice a week they get fed a raw diet, rest of the time they get their canidae. like minniyar, i just do not have the space in my home for an extra freezer to hold just dog food, and i honestly do not have the time to devote to pre packaging up meals for a week for the three dogs. so i do a happy medium which seems to work just fine for us.
Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.
IAMS USED to be a good company, they have changed hands and are now garbage. If your feeding Iams stop.
As for the expenses of RAW/BARF it depends... if you had to buy ALL of your meat from a store... the expenses would be WELL beyond what you would pay for kibble type dog food.
Most RAW feeders buy their bones in bulk, some people visit local butchers, some people visit local farmers, many go to slaughterhouses, and some purchase their RMBs over the internet, as there are several good sources.
If you have a way to store meat to buy it in bulk the cost is a little bit more expensive then a high quality kibble, but not by very much.
Addition: Soulmate... you have proven yourself to be nearly useless in the information you pass on. Give it up.
Anyone who can take over a whole plane with tweezers... might just deserve that plane.
I think the raw based kibble husky mentioned is the food I feed they call it the BARK diet, my dogs love it, there are no grains at all it is made of 70% vet inspected meat and 30% fruit and veggie. Here is the ingredient list in the one I use: Fresh chicken meat, chicken meal (low ash), turkey meal, steamed russet potato, fresh-caught Northern Whitefish, chicken fat, fresh whole eggs, salmon meal, salmon and anchovy oils, tapioca, chicken broth, sunflower oil, flaxseed, Atlantic kelp, steamed carrots, spinach, peas and tomatoes, sun-cured alfalfa, apple fiber, psyllium seed, rosemary extract, yeast extract (MOS), glucosamine HCl, cranberries, black currants, chondroitin sulfate.