I would only add this. Having read through a lot of forum posts, i've never seen a post saying that the individual feeding barf switched to kibble. I've seen someone post that they went half and half but never 100%. The ones feeding barf absolutely swear by this diet and their dogs are doing great. I have seen many times where people have picky dogs or dogs that don't do so hot on their current kibble and switch to barf or a different kibble. I'm not saying barf is better nor are my observations a very good controlled study but there could be something to it. I don't know about you but I read these forums because I want to learn from other peoples expertise and experience.
rarelamb, if you want good advice then don't listen to ellasmom. First off, she argues with minniyar, and then she says "I am tired. Is there really a point to YOUR arguement anymore?" HELLO. She was argueing too! Oh yeah....ellasmom. Kibble sure is crap like you said....................................................................that is why all the dogs at the purina dog shows are in top condition with shiny coats................. You sound like you want everyone to agree with you so you say nonsense things so that people go along with what you are saying. I just imagined you sitting with your dog. Hmmmmm....The dog is sitting by you on the couch eating a bloody raw cow bone with samonella crawling all over it.....The dog I imagine of yours is thin with a mangey coat because of no proper nutrition.
Chilipepper: You sound like you want everyone to agree with you so you say nonsense things so that people go along with what you are saying. Hmmm? Doesn't this sound like your reaction to a lot of people in your declaw or not declaw post?
How am I a control freak for wanting information beyond 'My dog does great on this dog food' as a good indicator of whether a food is great or better or especially healthier than kibble? Millions of dogs nationwide do great on Ol'Roy, lots of breeders swear by it, because their dogs "Do great and are healthier than ever!" but I'm not rushing out to buy a 50lb bag either. If someone tells me that a BARF diet is better/more natural/healthier than a kibble diet, am I a control freak for wanting some scientific evidence of their claims beyond a general opinion? No more than I am a control freak for wanting some hard evidence that the Atkins diet is perfectly healthy for humans. Also, if you read back over my posts, you will see that I am a firm proponent of the 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' rules of life. If someone is feeding Pedigree, or Purina, or Canidae, or Wellness or (gasp) yes, even BARF diets and their dogs are doing great, good for them. Good for their dogs. I have NEVER recommended anyone stop feeding any diet, regardless of what it is. If I have, please, show me the post. If someone is having problems with their food, I always recommend they change over to a high quality kibble like Canidae, Wellness, Nutro, Solid Gold, Chicken Soup, all of which are foods lacking additives, BHT/BHA, ethoxyquin, artificial colors and flavors. And I dont think I'm unreasonable for not blindly agreeing with someone regarding the safety of a raw food diet. I'm a control freak because I can't get beyond the fact that it is dangerous for humans to handle/eat raw foods because of bacteria, why wouldn't it be dangerous for dogs? Yes I did read your articles. I even found a government report on the presence of Salmonella in dry dog food (2 bags out of 207 samples, which is less than 1 percent) at http://www.fda.gov/ora/compliance_ref/cpg/cpgvet/cpg690-700.html I found scientific proof that as you said, animals (though it doesn't say which animals) were less succeptible to different varieties of the 2300 types of salmonella than humans at http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OA/background/bksalmon.htm (though it doesn't mention anything about it being because of the digestive system of the dogs) However I didn't find evidence the salmonella in packaged dog food was more dangerous to dogs than the salmonella on raw foods (especially when salmonella/bacteria on raw foods is so much more common), or scientific reports that show BARF diets are healthier for dogs/cats over time than a well-balanced kibble diet. I did find some reports that said the opposite though. I'm sticking with my guns. A balanced kibble diet is much more healthy for a dog than a BARF diet.
I was reading the previous posts and did not know how strongly people feel about this BARF diet. I have to say that I would be way to scared to feed my dogs raw meat and bones. I will also have to say that it does not sound safe, why would you want to risk the safety or your dogs, just to try out this new fad diet that has no evidence that it is better? How do you now that it will be better in the long run? There has been no evidence proven that it is better, besides dry kibble is better than it has been several years ago, and it will probably continue to get better.
I cut and pasted a bit of your responses to the raw feeding list. Here is what the list owner said.... I am not getting into it. The response about Ol Roy you came up with clearly speaks volumes.... LMAO yeah ellasmom. The reason vets were taught about purinaone is because that is the number 1 dog food out there. I don't even know why someone would be so...........................I don't even know what to say as to feed their dogs raw meat, whereas they can buy dry purinaone kibble which promotes clean teeth, healthy skin and coat, and keeps them trim. Kelly, it doesn't take rocket science to see just how stupid that entire sentence is. If kibble "promotes clean teeth then why are there all those "breathe and tooth" products out there?? If kibble promotes "healthy" coats and skin, why are there all those dog food additives out there?? Why are many kibble fed dogs overweight as witnessed by the eye of any beholder and all the dog foods which claim to be for overweight dogs?? >Not one show person that I have heard from feeds their dog raw food, and most that actually show give them purinaone dog food,> Which means absolutely nothing. I know several "show person's" who feed raw. What someone else does or doesn't do has nothing to do with the discussion. That is your typical sidetrack issue. >Have fun lying to everybody about how much healthier a BARF diet is rather then a balanced diet of purinaone dry kibble dog food. sue Easy to do. > they promote healthy balanced diets. This is difficult to accomplish with a home cooked diet. No it isn't. That's such BS that it isn't worth the time. I've raised several generations of dogs who have never had death in a bag, NEVER. What exactly does this moron think dogs ate before the pet food industry came along?? Dogs aren't exactly new to the scene. >Hopefully this little guy is getting food from all four food groups. Dogs are Omnivores in reality, they can get their nutrition from different food sources. Hopefully, this person can take their blinders off for more than a second. Since dogs aren't omnivores everything else claimed becomes even more swilled hogwash. > A cat is a true Carnivore, it has to have a meat source. So a dog could go on a Vegatarian diet. So is a dog, who also needs a meat source. Feeding a dog a vegetarian diet is your basic definition of abuse, plain and simple. >Meats can have chemical contaminants even raw. >Farm animals are given injections. Vegetables are sprayed with chemicals, many things to take into consideration. What exactly does this yo yo think goes into kibble?? >The bags of food we sell in the waiting room save lives in some cases, and we would never promote Purina, or sell Iams in our clinic. Hmmmm......"We sell"....enough said. > Hill/Science diet is used in Veterinary schools as a educational tool. Which is like letting a used car salesman tell you what car to buy and why. Not a whole lot of credibility I'd say. > The idea that the Vet Schools and their teaching curriculum is controlled by dog food manufacturers is so absurd it's laughable. See this idiots above statement about who "teaches" pet nutrition!! No one ever said that ALL the curriculum is the pet food industry. The part that applies to feeding animals is. >Secondly, if you are so derisive of veterinarians, their dietary recommendations, and their corrupt nature, I'm amazed you even trust them enough to consult you on health problems regarding Ella and your other pets. Two seperate issues obviously, although I never blindly accept anything my vet says. Those who unquestionably follow lab coat advice do so at the risk of the dog/cat/animal. > How can all they be so wrong on one thing (diet), and right on nearly everything else? The blind leading the blind. >That is so important that we all wash our hands and countertops when preparing any meats or vegetables. Human hygiene is important, this list has said that a zillion times and it is not news. >As I've said before, if the BARF proponents have some actual feeding trials vs kibble that take place over a few years that proves BARF fed dogs are so much healthier/long lived/etc I'm always open to raw data (ha, no pun intended). No, "you"(writer of this drival) aren't open. Raw diets have the best data there could possibly be. The evolutionary success of the dog. That you can't mentally grasp that is a shame. >Pardon me for going into what could be another health fad with my eyes open and asking questions. > The ability to add 2 + 2 is a real plus.
Why are dogs overweight? Because people feed their dogs and overdose of food. There are vitamin addatives that you can buy if your dog is defficient in a certain way, and there are tooth brushes to keep your dogs teeth clean, besides using just kibble. That post up there was the stupidest, most idiotic post I have ever seen here. I am done argueing with you samonellamom.
Dogs that are fed home diets do have dental issues, please spare me. Also many are over weight, and unhealthy, please spare me your diagnoses. Thats why I spend day after day begging people to stop feeding so much, or certain foods. its not necessarily about raw or kibble. But many brands do sit on the shelf just waiting for that idiot that doesn't know any better, to buy it. Dogs do not need a meat source to survive, thats rubbish, very untrue. Me commenting on meats and vegatables is just me trying to tell you its not chemical free! Hello! And about the prescription diets...did you think they should be free? We sell medications, I guess thats bad to, we should just let animals die or suffer? Were not a retail store, its the same as a Dr's office, they have a pharmacy. In some cases the diets are better than drugs!!! Thats what these diets are for. When a Kidney patient comes in that is clinging to life from Kidney failure, should I give them your number, do you think the pet would live long enough on your diet....absolutely not. The prescription diets are used as a teaching tool in Veterinary Universities because they are learning about chronic diseased animals, Hello, they may come in handy ya think?, You have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to Veterinary hospitals, or did you find a web site!? You know the truth is we see people just like you every day, they also have the same or similar ideas about their pets diet, and yet they always seem to have a Health problem. But why take our advise? Were just Animal Perfessionals and have no back ground or experience, were complete idiots. But its funny that you would need an idiot to help your pet when its sick. And usually its a direct result from lacking/to much in the diet. What you put in the mouth plays a very direct role in diseases and illnesses.(wheather its kibble or raw) Also, it is difficult to accomplish a balanced diet with a home food, theres more to the picture than the foods you put together in the kitchen. Anyone who who gives you shit for feeding a raw diet is retarded, many animals are severely neglected out there, so I'll just be glad your at least taking an interest in his health. But please don't go around insulting vets or prescription diets, You can't possibly know, or have seen the things I have seen, or Vets have seen. Dogs/Wolves in the wild are here for one purpose......Live, breed and die. Living a long healthy (well being) is not a priority in the wild. An old Wolf is 6 or 7 on average. Our pets can live up to 20 yrs in good cases. I say a woman who had a 20 year old cat, she was in the process of switching the cat over to Whiskas. Her cat looked great, she used to feed the cat Science diet. I of course told her not to change the diet, the diet has kept the animal in such good shape. Leeza is my 10 year old dog, she could easily pas for a 10 month old dog and has. I can see with my eyes the truth about diets, not a web site. And its not all about you!
Iyou guys are angry because I won't feed my dog kibble? what is your trip? Do I have to do what you say? You are feeding crap to your dog and I have already said I don't care what you do. Why are your panties in a knot over what I do? Don't be such a fanatic. I am not even going to dignify salmonellamom with an answer becaue aparently you can say what ever you want on here and no one gives a crap. This rant against my dogs food should have been stopped yesterday. There is just as much proof on the internet that says your food is bad, too, but you choose to ignore it. I am going to go back to writing to intelligent people now. Bye. Kelly
ADDITION THERE IS A CHART ON THE BOTTOM OF # http://www.doggonepositive.com/dogeatdog.htm WITH A TOTAL ANALYSIS OF DOG FOOD BY AN INDEPENDANT LAB pentobarbital is what they use to euthanize dogs and is found in lots of name brand kibble.
Kelly, that report wasn't done by an independent lab, it was a report done by the FDA that I've posted about 10 times on this forum. Hell I posted it earlier today. http://www.fda.gov/cvm/efoi/DFreport.htm If you actually take the time to read the information on that site, then click the appendix, the appendix has a link to the very chart that you just posted a link for. Let me give you a direct quote from the site, that (AGAIN) addresses the presence of pentobarbital in food and its likely origin, which is NOT from euthanized cats and dogs. "CVM scientists, as part of their investigation, developed a test to detect dog and cat DNA in the protein of the dog food. All samples from the most recent dog food survey (2000) that tested positive for pentobarbital, as well as a subset of samples that tested negative, were examined for the presence of remains derived from dogs or cats. The results demonstrated a complete absence of material that would have been derived from euthanized dogs or cats. The sensitivity of this method is 0.005% on a weight/weight basis; that is, the method can detect a minimum of 5 pounds of rendered remains in 50 tons of finished feed. Presently, it is assumed that the pentobarbital residues are entering pet foods from euthanized, rendered cattle or even horses " ( I suspect the pentobarbital in the food is coming from pet feed manufacturers that accept 4d meat). The two studies were done at two different times, notice the one done in 2000 is the more recent, and there're even fewer cases of it being in the food than just form 2 years previously, so apparently during that time period there was some sort of crackdown on it. I also suspect the crackdown had as much to do with the BSE (mad cow) outbreaks in europe as anything else.
I thought i've read that the cow hooves can splinter. I would really suggest you take a look at those bully or macho sticks. People absolutely rave about them. I've also heard of cow noses, but haven't seen them too much.