mrama that was a great article. but the people who continue to pay for designer mutts are still not going to get it. they are under the delusions of the craze this has created . miniature poodles are very sturdy little dogs and if they are treated as dogs and not accessories they are as good if not better than whatever people think about cockerpoos.
Commonscents, here: Sorry to bring this back up. I was just going to say that the labradoodles and goldendoodles are not always hypoallergenic because: 1) All breeds shed, even poodles. The amount of sheeding is not as much as with double coated dogs, but all dogs do shed. 2) When a lab or golden is bred with a poodle, some of the pups get a dog with lab or golden like hair, some are in between, and few of them get poodle like hair. The first goldendoodle I ever groomed about a year ago, I was asking the owner about the dog and why those 2 breeds were mixed (because I have never seen or heard of one before). According to the guy I asked, he said they are supposed to have the great personality of a golden (and what poodles have a bad one?) but they aren't supposed to shed and they are supposed to be hypoallergenic like a poodle, but yet, like a golden, they aren't supposed to need a haircut. How is this "hypo" dog not going to need a haircut? Either the dog is going to shed quite a bit, or it is going to have hair that grows and needs to be cut and not shed so much. People, please think about this one, before you even consider to buy one of these dogs. Also, designer mutts are not necessarily healthier than the breeds that are in it. They can inherit the same problems as the purebreds. Labradoodles will still be very prone to hip dysplasia, and other common problems with labs and standard poodles. The difference is, that they can get problems that either of the breeds carry, so some can actually be a lot less healthy than purebreds. There is no such thing as "hybrid vigor" that some of the breeders are trying advertise. And these have been proven.
"All breeds shed, even poodles. The amount of sheeding is not as much as with double coated dogs, but all dogs do shed." Very true. I have Bichons (supposedly non-shedding and hypoallergenic) and they do shed. It's not as much as other bereds that are considered shedders, but it is some (even people shed, so I think almost all animals shed). And although I'm not allergic to them, I get a mildly itchy nose and eyes every once in a while when I am too close to them for too long. That said, I believe that when you take a breed like a poodle, not totally hypoallergenic, and mix it with a breed that can irritate allergies, that dilutes what you already have in the poodle. THen that increases the chance even more of having a dog that is bad for allergies. Know what I mean?
NO, I don't know what you mean!!!!! You have totally made up this theory that if a poodle(which sheds a little bit)is mixed with a shedding dog, then it will "Dilute" the poodle's very low-shedding hair tendencies. In actuality. there is a thing called canine genetics, and like all genetics, there are laws. Poodle hair type is controlledby a dominant gene. Certain shedding dogs, such as Cocker Spaniels, have hair/fur that is a recessive type. Therefor, the poodle's very low shedding hair prevails. As an allergy sufferer, I can tell you that although all animals probably do shed a little bit, including people, Poodle hair does not bother me, partly bacuse they shed so very little, and mostly because they do not have the same undercoat as a shedding dog. That undercoat, and the associated dander, often is what sets allergy sufferers off, whether it has been shed around the house, or is still on the dog!
Yeah, and through time, do you honestly think that these traits remain dominant after multiple breedings? Yeah, just the way that the water spaniel traits are still common in the Bichon. I understand genetics fine thank you very much. THe point is, even if my ancestors are all redheads, that doesn't mean that far down the road, the whole family will have red hair. THat trait can fall out as moer generations are created, just the same as the hypo-alleregnic dogs and the non hpo-allergenic dogs. And dander upsets allergies, not the hair itself. Those were two separate thoughts, the shedding and allergies.
When it comes to first generation hybrid crosses such as a first generation cockapoo, a purebred poodle is crossed with a purebred cocker spaniel, and the result is a dog with the dominant poodle hair gene! There is no "through time" on a first generation cross, therefor a person can get a hypoallergenic dog that way. If you understand genetics so well, why would you make up all that stuff about "diluting"?
And you're talking about something different now. I'm saying that just because the dogs are hypo-allergenic or not now doesn't mean that they are always going to be that way. Therefore, CREATING THEM FOR THAT PUROPSE IS STUPID. I have said all along that there's no point to create a new breed for some reason when there are already dogs used for that purpose. THat's all I was trying to say, so forgive me if I worded it wrong and used the word "dilute" when describing a though. There must be somthing wrong with me...
The part I don't understand is why you care if new breeds are created. Who are you to say, Okay we have such and such number of breeds, so that's enough. And why do breeds have to have a purpose, other than being a great pet?
I don't know, why do they have to have a purpose? But people keep creating them to have a purpose. And I care because there are animals DYING in shelters. Like I said before, I'm against breeding, I don't have to agree with it. How about, who are you to tell me I can't care? I have a genuine concern that there are animals dying to be loved, literally, and there are people out there creating some new breed, which takes away homes for the shelter pups. The more breeds created, the more people are going to be buying from breeders, and that means more dogs die. It's a vicious cycle and it's a true story.
The vicious cycle is this thread. Because you bring up one argument, and when it is sufficiently proven wrong, you go back to something else that has already been dscussed in this very thread. So in answer to your last post, I say re-read my message on the top of page 4, and on page 3, message #42 because that is where we already had that very discussion.
Huh, interesting since it was you that was the one who had the nerve to ask me why I hate the idea of breeding mutt breeds. So I say go back and read my old posts- through the whole board and archives. I'm done with this post like mad, but I have to end it by saying that I care more abouth the lives of the dogs than mildly hurting the feelings of someone in computer la-la land. Not to be mean, but no one here knows me, so you'll heal, but the animals won't.
Sorry to disappoint you, but you haven't hurt my feelings, and I love dogs every bit as much as you do. I did not ask your opinion. After I posted a general response to this subject, you gave your opinion. That's the way these forums work, so that's fine. If you can get your mom to drive you to a shelter, I'm sure you will be happy doing work there, as I can tell that is your passion! That's wonderful. As for me I'll be happy with my cockapoo! I'm done with this subject too, as I've more than made my point!
"Who are you to say, Okay we have such and such number of breeds, so that's enough. And why do breeds have to have a purpose, other than being a great pet?" uh huh, those aren't questions. Okay. See ya tomorrow. Going to bed. I'm not "disappointed" LOL, I really don't care enough. I'm not trying to be rude here. Just my thoughts. Hope you understand my points-of-view.
mrama, No I don't think my breeder has a website. She advertised in the local classifieds. That is where I found her via the internet. I could have found her in my local newspaper as well, I'm sure. Cheers to Cockapoomommy for her comments about using this site to help and not criticize. I just joined this forum 1 week ago and I thought the same thing. Jeeeezzz-- "sorry not to have purchased the correct type of puppy from the correct place according to all the experts on this site". I just love my dog and he loves me - so what's the big problem??
Ok, I've been reading this thread for some time now and have finally given in and decided to respond. First of all, the sanctimonious BS is getting a little old. If you want to be what you feel is a "better person" by adopting an animal from a shelter rather than buying from a breeder or pet store, that's your perrogative. I'm sure that most of us, if we were in the perfect situation, would love to rescue an animal at a shelter. But the reality is that not everyone's situation or needs are the same, and those of us who for one reason or another can't or choose not to go through a shelter aren't uninformed or heartless- quite the opposite. We realize our limitations, and while that may seem selfish, in the end it benefits both pet and owner. Secondly, why are non-adopters the "bad guys" in this situation? I'm not the person who thought it would be cool to get a dog and then return it because they didn't research the breed or realize the cost and time of taking care of a pet. I'm the one who's done the research and found the best match for both animal and owner in my specific situation. If I'm not able to locate that type of dog in a shelter doesn't make me a bad person. Each of us wants a companion for different reasons, and it's not a bad thing for us to find them in different places. I'm smart enough to know that many dogs in shelters need good homes, but there are also many children out there in orphanages and foster homes that need good homes too. Sure, they don't euthanize children if they're not adopted, but is that any worse than if these children never find homes where they're loved and taken care of and are nurtured? Going one step further, should I also not have my own child (and create a "mixed breed") if I was predisposed to high blood pressure or diabetes, which might result in the same problems for my children in the future? Ok, I've had my say on this. Some may agree, some may disagree, but that's my opinion, and maybe it's something to think about.
Ok first off, cockapoomommy, I have neither seen nor heard anything about the poodle coat texture being 'dominant' on any site or dog genetics site other than a Poo-breeder site. And since it's very common for breeders to 'toot' their own horns, I'm not sure whether I should believe this or not. You say that the poodle coat is dominant, and therefore usually a cockapoo will not shed. If the poodle coat is really dominant, then a dog that is a mixture between a purebred cocker spaniel and a poodle would NEVER shed. That's what dominant means, unless of course this gene is really an 'incomplete dominance' which is what I believe it is. And frosty is right..By breeding the two together, you are actually diluting the effectiveness of the no-shed gene. For argument's sake, let's say that the gene that you claim to cause the single coat type (no undercoat) gene in Poodles is 'S'. And the one for a shedding dog with an undercoat like a cocker is 's'. So if you breed poodle SS with a Cocker ss you get F1 offspring puppies that are all Ss, heterozygous, with the dominant gene for no-shedding. With a single breeding, you've already diluted the pure SS gene that was in the poodle down to the Ss in the cockapoo. Now then. What if, as I stated, the poodle coat type gene is more an incomplete dominance than a true straight out dominance, which is already proven by the fact that some cockapoos shed (and don't try to sell me on the fact that maybe some Poodles are Ss. If they were, a LOT of purebred poodles wouldn't even have the poodle coat). Ok so if we go by the incomplete dominance. For F1 cockapoos that are Ss, they don't have the coat of a poodle (which is true), but they also don't have the true undercoat of a cocker (which is also true). Instead, they have a coat that is kind of midground. Silky, *typically* no undercoat so less pet dander with less allergy causing effects. A dog that's just about midway in between the two dogs. It won't be as good about producing dander and not shedding as a poodle, but it won't be as bad as a cocker either. So we know it's not as good as a poodle already regarding the not shedding.. so why even breed it and claim it's for 'allergy sufferers' when it doesn't work as well?
Cockapoomommy: Why would I make that up? I did not make that up. The only sources saying they don't shed are the labradoodle and goldendoodle breeders. There are sources online that will show you I did not make that up. The other day on our local morning talk show, they had someone on their talking about these dogs and warning people that they do shed. That is too bad you think I am a lier and that I am just making up stuff. Please get off you high horse and learn some facts before insulting those of us that have heared and learned different than what most people hear from their mutt breeders. Most of the cockapoos I have groomed have more cocker-like hair than poodle-like hair. Yes, I know it is all genetics, I know all about that. I am not some common idiot speaking about somthing I know nothing about.
Luvapit, I did not say you made up anything. I said FrostyGirl made up all of that about Diluting stuff. I do, however, believe that most of the cockapoos you have groomed that shed are not first generation F1 crosses, which is the only type of cockapoo that I ever said could be counted on to be hypoallergenic. Minniyar, I think the problem we are having is that we are not talking about the same situation. When I was having the discussion with Frosty Girl, I specified that it is possible to guarantee a hypoallergenic cockapoo on a first generation, F1 cross, because if the poodle is SS and the cocker is ss, you would end up with Ss, and still, the poodle hair would prevail. I still believe that is true. In the next generation, you could cross two cockapoos, and end up with a ss, Ss, or SS. Obviously, the ss would have cocker hair/fur, and not be hypoallergenic. But if you reread my post, #86, I specified FIRST GENERATION as a dependable dog for being hypoallergenic. (I am not saying that I don't think cockapoos should be bred into further generations, because if they are a great dog for many reasons, I think they should be. ) But for the allergy issue, if we are all talking about FIRST GENERATION crosses, then I beleive it is true. Luvapit: As far as being on a high horse, I don't think I'm the one who is. I am defending hybrid mixed dogs, because of those of you who have attacked them and their owners. I did not bring the subject up, and I think the ones who are telling all of us poodle hybrid owners what kind of dogs to buy, where to get them and how much to pay, are the ones who need to get down off their high horse. I never would have started a thread on why their dog breed shouldn't exist because I am not the kind of person who attacks other people for making their own choices. But, if my choices are attacked, I will defend them.
Cockapoomommy, I have 2 dogs, one is a purebred weimaraner and the other is a mixed breed. He is a pit bull mix that I happily rescued from the humane society after he had been sitting there for a year looking for a home. The humane society rescued him from animal control that rescued him from a man that must not have realized that dogs are supposed to be fed and loved, and not kicked around, beaten, whipped, and cut. I love mixed breed dogs. I love purebred dogs as well. I am not too fond of people purposly mixing dogs to make a lot of money off of the poor dogs. Just because I don't know for sure his other breed, does not make him any worse than any other mixed breed. He is a mutt, a mongrel, and you know what, I love him for who he is. Your dog is a mutt and a mongrel, also.