I bought a "registered" pomeranian male. He is beautiful, healthy, and everything wonderful in the world. I went to fill out his registration papers, researched this APRI and found out it is nothing like AKC. I'm buying an AKC female, just put a deposit and was planning on breeding them b/c they are both so beautiful. I can register the female with APRI no problem. But can I register the male with UKC at least or am I stuck with only having APRI litters?
No, I have fallen in love with the Pomeranian Breed. My dog has a good temperment, perfect size for a smaller dog, is good with children and not to mention has an amazing color and coat. I can't count how many compliments I have gotten on my pup. He goes everywhere with me and everyone I know wants one just like him. So yeah, I'm breeding him because he is beautiful. I have searched high and low for both of my dogs. Why people like you have such an annoyance to good pet owners like myself who breed for the love of the dog is insulting. What makes you better than me to critisize why I intentionally am breeding? Thanks for answering my question by the way.
Has the dog been shown through service (such as therapy), or done agility? Do you have a mentor who you can ask questions to during the pregnancy? Has the dog been tested for any genetic health problems? Will you have a contract that ensure the dogs will go back to you if the buyers are unwilling to take care of them anymore? Will you offer spay/neteurcontracts?
I volunteer for a small dog rescue. Our founder loves pom... we can't keep up with all the ones at the local shelters.
Your best friend may just be a click away "www.petfinder.com"
Neither the AKC or the United Kennel Club will register an APRI dog. I think it's great that you love your dog, but you mentioned nothing about his health. Have you had his knees checked. I don't know about the Pomeranian specifically, but small dogs can have eye, heart, liver and knee problems. They can also suffer from epilepsy. What will you do when a puppy buyer decides to sue you b/c you didn't test for these? Has anyone else evaluated your dog, someone like a show breeder, judge or professional handler? I am starting out a puppy search right now and will automatically skip over any breeder that advertises anything other than AKC. In the dog world, APRI is considered a backyard breeder or puppymill registry. Is that what you want people to think of you? I say neuter your male and buy a top quality show pomeranian. If she does well in the ring you can talk to her breeder about the next step. If you have truly "fallen in love with the Pomeranian Breed," then why would you want to potentially compound the number of health problems or out of standard dogs?
Please join a pomeranian-specific forum. Find out what you're in for, it may change your mind. Beautiful does not equal worthy to breed. Please don't become another BYB. There are so many dogs in rescues and shelters, who started out as BYB puppies, waiting for loving homes.
Do your homework (it'll take some time) and then make a decision to either become a responsible breeder with all the myriad of responsibilities it entails or just be the owner of much-loved pets (much less stressful, IMO).
If you are breeding for the love of the breed you would not breed apri dogs.
You are just learning. Take these dogs as your intro into the breed and do not worry about breeding. Breeding is such a big thing to get involved in it doesn't leave you with all the time to learn and get involved with the breed if you start out right away.
And you want to do it the right way right?
When you go to find a breeding dog go to a breeder who shows,someone who has dogs were you can trace there lines back.
Problem with the apri/ckc/other mill registries is you don't even know if the dog is a purebred since they will register anything. So breeding them just continues some line you know nothing about.
Find a dog show by you and go and meet some breeders. Find someone who can help you start into the breed. Anyone willing to sell you a pup no strings attached with breeding rights is not the person to learn from.
We all have beautiful, well trained,intelligent dogs-its not a reason to breed them. If a dog has the lines,can show it off in the ring,and is the right temperament then its time to look into breeding.
At that point you have health tests to run. And you won't breed with your stud because chances are you stud would not compliment your female-thats a one in a million chance. Especially if you get them as puppies.
And on top of all that you may get a show prospect female pup and she may end up just a pet. Its a lot of time,work and effort.
If I have any beliefs about immortality, it is that certain dogs I have known will go to heaven, and very, very few persons -James Thurber
Outside of the "moral" reasons for not breeding dogs of less than great quality (and honestly - some person on the street telling you that you have a cute puppy is NOT an indication of quality) - there are the surprises you may be getting yourself in for. APRI is the Puppymillers/BYB's registry. It was largely founded as a way for dishonest puppymillers and BYBer's to get around buying AKC limited registration dogs (ones the breeders wanted sold as pets only and not bred) but still be able to breed them. The whole registry is based on dishonesty.
The person you bought your dog from is most likely breeding dogs they bought from a Puppymill/BYB/Pet Store... The bigger implication behind this is that they most likely know next to nothing about the family health history of the dogs they are breeding. The entire family tree could be riddled with Luxated Patellas and seizures - and you would never know. You're breeding in the blind as a result. I bet you got a shoddy health guarantee - and if it covered anything it was probably for "terminal" health issues within the 1st year and only if you give the dog back - and then you get a replacement puppy...
No matter how much you love your pet - you're not just breeding him - you are essentially breeding his entire family tree - which also means you get all the temperament and health problems they have as well. Puppies won't just look or act like your dogs. They are just as apt to look and act and have the health problems of their grandparents, great grandparents, cousins, uncles...
And breeding is NOT a game. It's hardwork and a lot of heartache. You rarely make money, and you're lucky if you cover your expenses - especially when you're just having a litter of pets. Pomeranians are prone to c-section deliveries... have you looked into how much a c-section costs? What if your girl dies during delivery (which DOES happen - and more often if the breeder/owner doesn't know what they are doing). What will you do if you breed a puppy born with health problems?
If you want to get into breeding dogs - do it the right way. No respectable breeder sells anything with breeding rights to a pet home. So what you're buying are puppies from BYB's and Puppymills - and all that implies. You may have wonderful intentions - but by breeding a dog you get from a lousy, lazy breeder you are saying you agree with their breeding practices.
Having said that - I started off as a breeder RIGHT where you are. I bought two nice pet Shelties from a nice lady who had 8-10 Shelties and a couple of Westies. She didn't even know what color the dogs actually were (I found this out later). They had great personalities and her dogs were friendly and clean. Right after I had my first litter I ran into her and had a conversation with her... she'd found out that SEVERAL of the siblings to my dogs had Luxated Patellas. She's stopped breeding her Shelties shortly after that. I very quickly spayed and neutered those two dogs (who I still have and love no less) and started learning about canine genetics, testing, correct conformation... That lady had bought her breeding dogs from a puppymill (someone toting champion bloodlines because there was a champion in the 5th generation) and knew nothing about the family background of the dogs. So I say all of this coming from a very sincere place - I've been right where you are. If you do this, and ever decide you DO want to breed, show, be active with Pomeranians it is MUCH harder to get a decent breeder to work with you AFTER you've dipped into the BYB pool.
It's not about being snobby - it's about understanding that there is a lot more to being a good breeder - or even being a nice person who likes dogs. If you knowingly breed two dogs together that you know nothing about their family, you've done no testing, you just want cute puppies... you're only slightly better than a puppymill. Just the fact that you didn't realize the implications fo APRI registration on your male means that his breeder was less than honest with you - what else didn't they tell you? What if his sire has eye problems? The mother has luxated patellas? Do you trust that they were being totally honest with you? Not saying anything about YOU testing or showing - I'm trying to help you understand that once you breed a male and female dog you become responsible for their offspring - and can you sleep at night wondering if your first litter of puppies will all have major health issues before they are 2?
calliedee, you might think everyone is being negative, but believe me, it's all meant to show you the pitfalls of breeding with out being fully knowledgeable, and to save you a lot of heartache in the end. If I were you , I'd neuter your cute little guy, and start researching the breed, and go to a few shows to see what you're up against. Normally, I would advise you to start out with a female, because unless you have an established breeding program, you will go out and find a male. The main focus right now though is research, and more research. Good luck, and let us know how things progress.
" So yeah, I'm breeding him because he is beautiful. I have searched high and low for both of my dogs. Why people like you have such an annoyance to good pet owners like myself who breed for the love of the dog is insulting. What makes you better than me to critisize why I intentionally am breeding? "
I also have an " annoyance" for people that breed for looks. Not one time in your post did i read anything about being concerned for breeding for healthy puppies. Only that the male was healthy, as far as you know i might add. Two of the most perfect parents can produce genetic messes. Without health testing the parents, any pups being produced are at risk for things that could have been avoided through testing. You do not even understand the breed registries. Is your male at least two years old ? Thats how old they have to even BE tested. Health should be the main concern of anyone breeding and testing is a part of it. Sorry if you do not like people disagreeing with your logic, but personally, i think it sucks. Educate yourself before stepping into something that involves the lives of innocent little babies.
"No Matter how little money and how few possessions, you own, having a dog makes you rich." - Louis Sabin
You know dusty I have a similar pet peeve - though mine extends to structure. It amazes me how many pet owners who want to breed that never even think for a moment about whether their dog is physically put together well. "Pretty" doesn't do much as far as health and longevity and soundness. Especially being a breeder of herding dogs. While Shelties are primarily used as companions, it still makes a HUGE difference to their well being if their angulation and body is sound. I have an arthritic 7 year old that I got right before we decided we may want to breed (so has always been spayed) who has the most straight and awful rear angulation - which resulted in her having joint problems that aren't even supposed to be common in the Sheltie breed.
It's not hard to know the basics of animal husbandry and to understand that without correct structure that you get an animal that isn't well equipped to live a long, healthy life. I think too often pet owners who want to breed get stuck on "pretty". But what kills me is that most of those same people would really be upset if they knew the breeder they got their dog from got mentally stuck on the nice COLOR of the dogs they were breeding and didn't think much further than that.
With Shelties I especially get "OH It has a full white collar!". I was having a conversation with a friend who also shows and breeds Shelties a few weeks ago and she was telling me about a pet person who kept asking her if a specific puppy had a full collar. Not once did that person ask about the personality of the puppy or what health testing the parents had done. My friend admitted to me that she honestly couldn't remember off the top of her head if the puppy had a full collar as it's been years since she's worried about MARKINGS on a puppy - should could however tell the person every minute detail of that puppy's structure (how the front and rear were angulated, whether the puppy had a nice length of loin, correct neck, correct head planes)... I have no doubt that person went and bought a puppy with a nice, full white collar - probably from a puppymill - and the puppy they got probably is straight as a board on both ends and won't be able to chase a ball at 8-9 years old...
I would like to thank all of those who explained things instead of just "pulling hair out" like the first post. I do agree with all of you regarding the health. I have learned prior to this that you want to wait until two years old to breed because of the testing and waiting to see if there are any health defects. It saddens me that my beautiful little boy won't be the father I wanted him to be, BUT that is why we have forums such as this to discuss. I am buying an AKC female who I have watched grow from a puppy, been in constant discussion with her breeder, and she is AKC registered. I have asked specific questions regarding line breeding, health and such, so I have been informed more THIS go round. I have researched when dog shows are in my area b/c I want to socialize with other Pom owners who have taken great stock in their pets. Not to mention I did look up the kennel I bought my first pup at and did not see any negative feedback so I was surprised with the APRI registration.
Thanks for answering my question in full and taking the time to go in depth. Any other snippets of info??
You seem to be taking steps in the right direction regarding learning first before breeding your dogs together, it's a shame more people don't do like you are and read up/educate themselves first. I can't tell you how many times people have come to this forum saying, "We bred our boy and girl dogs of X breed together, now what do we do to prepare for the puppies?"
You said you're interested in going to a few dog shows in your area, one of the best places I found to learn about showing dogs and good conformation was at an all-breed dog club. These 'clubs' are local groups of dog lovers and owners, usually devoted to conformation dog shows and other performance dog events like obedience, agility, herding, etc that are affiliated iwth the AKC to promote responsible dog ownership and education.
The kennel club in my area was the Montgomery Kennel Club, and they offered conformation classes so I could learn how to show my dog in dog shows, and where I met people like myself with a great love of dogs :) Be aware that sometimes, especially among people who have dogs of the same bered as you, they see you as 'competition' and some can be very nasty to try and drive you from competing against them. However, all-breed clubs like the MKC have members with a wide variety of breed experience among them, and if you can get in a good and welcoming one, you can learn a lot not just about your own breed, but other breeds. I saw dogs i'd never even seen before in my life after joining mine, including scottish deerhounds and ibizan hounds!
Don't bother clicking on your breed, you want to keep the selector on 'all-breed' and then just click your state. It'll show you all AKC clubs they have registered there, and most will have contact numbers or websites for you to check out.
Never trust a tall dwarf... he's lying about something.
APRI which is not just a registerey for puppy mills/ BYB the AKC will duel regostration (which is from a AKC offical) on a APRI puppie but not a APR puppie there are 2 diff ones, APRI traces the lines back at least 5 gerations and if they canot trace that far back they will give the puppie a APR registration. So as all APRI puppies arew not from puppy mills and any one that is selling a puppy in my opinon should be consderd a puppy mill even if the spay and nutered the dog before hand to keep them out of a "puppy mill" they are all in it for money if they give a pure breed away for nothin and not in it for the cost of shots, food, time and every thing inculded in rasing a puppy then they sould not be call a puppy mill but i have not come accrous one like that and if some one does email me and ill be proud to take this down but ANYONE selling dogs accourding to this forum sould be call puppy mills!!!!
Wow, one huge run on. I couldnt make heads or tails of the point they were attemting to make.
According to what deciphering I did do (1st 2 lines) before my head began throbbing was: They claim that AKC will register a APRI dog with the AKC. Nope, never, not happening. That was NO AKC official you spoke with if that is what you were saying.
Actually, AKC is registering dogs registered with APRI if they are from AKC dogs either parents or grandparents at least. I do not know how far back they go but at least 2 generations.
No, I do not own any APRI dogs(all AKC here) but my mom recently got inspected by AKC and while she also does not own any dogs that aren't AKC, the inspector asked if any were. He explained why and how. They are also accepting ACA dogs that origionated from AKC dogs. This is fact wether we like it or not. There are going to be alot of mad and happy people over this. You can check it out with AKC if you want but yes it is true. It is a new thing, but it is for real.
But they will also accept them if only the grandparents were AKC and it skipped a generation. Parents them selves don't have to be AKC. I think that skipped generation is where the problem with limited registration would come in. Not saying I am for this, just letting you know that they are doing it now.