some people in china are getting there dogs debarked. I read an article that pet owners in china have to pay a 1200 US dollars licensing fee per dog for a year. That is why some dog owners debarked their dog so no one knows they own a dog, and can avoid the licensing fee. But some surgeons wont do the procedue because they think it's cruel.
***Edited By: finalsphere on 1/26/2006 11:23:13 PM*** Reason: edit
"'Sorry to bump this back up guys but this persons comments speaks just like a true byb ....again Education is the Key........Dogs are NOT property for starters! "
You must be kidding!! I have bred,finished and campaigned more champions in 20 years of showing and breeding dogs than you have probably seen in your life.
The POINT I'm trying to make with my post about OWNING MY DOGS is that the AR nuts want us to re-name our ownership "guardianship" That will eventually take away our rights to keep, breed, show or love our dogs. Soon our dogs will have more rights than we will. WE are currently in the fight of our lives to keep our rights and defeat PAWS legislation and other animal rights antibreeder laws. And yes.. YOU OWN your dogs. In the eyes of the law they are property. They are not and never should be considered equal to human beings. I love mine and they receive excellent care but, they are not equal to human beings.
As for de-barking.. do as you wish. Listen to obnoxious dogs. Have the animal control called. Yell at them all you want. My dogs are happy, healthy and can bark their fool heads off without getting anyone angry at them. And yes, if someone comes to my home or near my house I know that someone is there. They are NOT silent.
Beagles1, yes in the eyes of the my dogs are considered property. but morale i do not own them. they have their own will (hence problems like barking)I am do not consider myself a superior being to a dog. In fact in many senses i consider dogs superior to me. As for yelling at a dog for barking, I never yell at them for barking. Barking is communal among dogs. so you yelling is just adding to the noise. Also, there are other means to contolling obnixious behavior. dogs do everything for a reason. nothing is without purpose. some dogs seem like they bark to hear themselves bark. but there is a reason. If we are superior and more intellgent, we should be able to outsmart them. I live in the middle of San Diego Nieghbors to the left and right and all around. i have 4 dogs. I have never had animal control called on me. Actually I get neighbors coming over asking how did you get your dog to do this or that. The whole issue of de-barking, cropping, docking and countless other things are morale and ethincal choices. Which are personell beliefs of what is right and what is wrong. Just as is how much punishment is considered training and what point is it considered abuse. I could careless if the jone's de-bark thier dog. I will never do that. (plus my dogs have to bark, it's part of thier job).
I don't view dogs as people although I love mine more than I love some people (shhh secret!) How could you not? Dogs are loyal and all they want to do is please you. My dogs always got my back. I have never encountered a dog who would not stop barking. But then again all our dogs live indoors and get lots of attention. I also did not have more than 4 pets in one household. Some people have numerous pets (not just dogs) and I don't see how they can give each pet enough attention. Maybe this is why some dogs just bark excessively and incessantly.
A dog that barks just for the love of hearing himself is not a good "alarm" dog. And I don't get a dog to be a fire alarm or a guard dog. I feel it is MY job to care for my dog, not the other way around.
First of all their vocal cords are not ripped out, they are snipped. Since vocal cords are just that, strands that vibrate they cut the strands. Poof, done.
Secondly, there are dogs that BARK because they like to BARK. It is not about attention or care, they BARK becuase they enjoy it. Barking releases endorphnis into the brain. The more they bark the more drugs are released into their system. Basicly, most dogs who bark and won't stop barking are getting high off of their own bodies drug factory and become addicted to it. That is why they can not be trained out of it.
As I've said, if you have not met a dog who barked for the sheer enjoyment of it, you won't understand. It is diffrent from barking from boredom, lack of attention, or even dogs who think EVERYTHING is a warning or that the leaves are invading their yard and should be damaged.
These dogs are basicly drug addicts on their own voices. They bark becuase it feels good. It feels better then any praise or punishment you can give them and they are triggering their own reward for it.
Having met several dogs that bark to bark, you can see how it wears on a person in the end.
Amazing how we can stand on one issue and not the other. People are facinating.
Dogs are not "handicapped" by debarking--they still do just the same as they did before--just not as loudly. "Old -fashioned" may be the reson there are so many problems--people refuse to accept "progress". Many times, the old fashioned solution is a beating or Put to sleep. Ever stop to consider that some dogs just are not as smart as we think they should be and "training"-- which to me means more punishment--is not going to improve the dog's IQ?
I grew up with a St. Bernard who barked quite often (though not constantly) especially at night. Usually we'd let it go on for a few minutes (We lived in a rural area and had a trail behind our house) then would tell him to stop. Sometimes he would, sometimes he wouldn't. We asked the neighboors after a few months of this if it was bothering any of them. They all told us they liked his barking, that way they knew if someone or something was lurking about at night (coyotes and occasionally mountain lions were a problem in our area). So we let him bark.
I now have an almost 6 month old Queensland Heeler pup. She wouldn't bark at anything for the longest time. It bothered me because Heelers are suppose to be protective of their property and their people. Now every so often she'll start to bark at someone or something (it sounds like a weird sneeze, like she can't quite make the actual barking sound) and when I praise her for it she just comes over all happy and sits down. If I ignore her I"m afraid she'll think she's not suppose to bark because she doesn't get a positive reaction from me. I know she can bark, I've heard her a few times so she's not debarked. My fiancee grew up on a ranch and raised heelers his whole life and he's never had one that doesn't bark. I'm hoping this is something she'll grow out of. She tries.
"Amazing how we can stand on one issue and not the other. People are facinating."
Not quite sure what is meant by that. Oh well. I am entitled to my own opinion as well, and I find debarking to be downright cruel. I find cruelty to be fascinating, and not in a good way obviously.
*Unless the debarking is done for medical/health reasons it is unethical*
I would consider it a handicap for me to be mute (or have an incredibly hoarse voice all the time), so I feel the same about animals. That's a major problem with society today - we try to fix everything with drugs and unneccessary surgery (think plastic surgery for people who don't like their nose for instance). I still support the training idea. Sure, I've seen dogs that just like to bark, but there are other ways to fix this problem other than altering something that a dog is supposed to do.
Again, if barking annoys you, get a cat.
***Edited By: Cinnaeve on 1/27/2006 4:20:21 PM*** Reason: add
We alter dog's behavior in a lot of ways--Spay and neuter to prevent humping, heat cycles and bleeding, or puppies. Tails are docked to prevent constant injury to the tail. Dew claws are removed. So surgery is used to prevent some behaviors and make a dog more livable. No one says to "train" a dog to prevent humping--they say to neuter. No one says to train them not to "breed'. It is the same with uncontrollable barking.
I was referring to uneccessary alterations. Spay/neutering reduces risk of cancer and prevents more animals from going to shelters. That is health-related surgery. Cropping ears and docking tails is on the edge. If the dog has medical reasons for ear or tail alterations, I'm all for it. I do not support cutting off tails and portions of ears for a "better" physical appearance. Barking is really not a big deal. We talk and dogs bark. Barking can be controlled with proper training. I have witnessed this first-hand.
***Edited By: Cinnaeve on 1/27/2006 11:56:06 AM*** Reason: .
This is the problem with debarking,cropping, docking is you are removing a form of communication. limiting a dogs ability to communicate with other dogs is going to cause more problems than it solves. also communication with humans. dobermans for one, are docked and cropped for a intimadating look. even if the dog is friendly you would never know from a distance. because thier is no tail wagging leass ear to manipulate, and if the dog is be barked, no warning of what is coming. Noisy dogs are not just born, they are created. some breeds are barkers, i know. but some dogs are also nippy, some shed more. every breed has it's problem. I am not impressed with anyone who drops years of experienc, dogs they have raised to whatever titles. but cannot stop a dog from barking without alltering part of it's anatomy. Every keeps mentioning yelling at the dog for barking. Stop the craziness. if yeling the 117th time did not shut the dog up and then why yell the 118th time. yelling is not training, nor is it discpline. it's your fustration manifesting itself. barking in dogs is a communal activity you yelling is going to create more barking, not less. some people think that when they well, the dog will be wuite for a minute and then continue to bark so they well again. dog is quite for a few momnets then starts again. what is going on here? THE DOG IS TRYING TO GET YOU TO BARK!
I am not totally opposed to de-barking, but I do believe it should be a last ditch effort to help a problem dog become manageable when the next option is to put the dog down.
Keep in mind, I raise Shelties - a breed KNOWN for being big barkers. I never condone debarking a Sheltie unless you literally have tried everything else. They are smart dogs that train easily with consistency and patience and are eager to please. If you can't get your Sheltie to stop barking when asked, you haven't tried very hard with training. You shouldn't even consider a Sheltie is you dislike barking and you're not willing to train them not to bark. I would NEVER de bark one of my own dogs, BUT I live in the middle of no where, with no neighbors who really care if my dogs bark (surrounded by Forest Service land on 3 sides - and our only neighbor has a Sheltie herself and about a dozen cats that constantly wander over to our house - we don't complain about her cats, she doesn't complain about our dogs barking).
I do see why in some cases - like Icy's - that de barking is the only remaining option. And in her case I agree with it. I have a rescue Sheltie that is deaf that barks literally because she likes to. We have a vibration collar that she is trained with and she USUALLY will stop barking and make eye contact with us so we can tell her to be quiet (we have signs for all her commands) - but in her case, she does bark for no reason occasionally. I can sympathize with Icy's situation. And in her case - they probably saved the dogs life. Wouldn't it be better for the dog to live de barked, then to die with a voice?
I do disagree with the people who de bark their dogs just because it's an option. I know of a couple of Sheltie breeders that de bark all their dogs. I think that is not right since they CHOSE to show and breed Shelties. When you commit to a breed that you know is vocal - and you are a breeder - really you should accept the fact that part of what makes the Sheltie a Sheltie is their barking. And I guess I have difficulties seeing how a judge in the conformation ring can accept a dog that needs it's voice to do it's job, when it doesn't have it's voice? That puzzles me.
I have witnessed dogs that have barked to here themselves bark (though i would suspect that this behavior was not shaped and ill handled early on, then the trainer or handler giving up, so when i show up i just see a dog who looks likes he loves to bark) and it seems nothing will stop them, well we have to make that something more powerful than the need to bark. I will withhold food to create food drive. it is a great training strategy and imo is much safer and not so permanent to de barking. I would withhold food till the dog would think the food is more important than a bark. many times barkers are confined dogs. dogs that have a crate but never trained to like it. Addie's sister does this, addie is happy as a peach in the crate. and were talking a high drive, high intense malinois. also tired dogs, sleep. and i have never seen a dog bark straight through a bark collar. put a bark collar on once and talk. it is physically impossible. i have seen dogs get burns on thier necks from the collars. this is not from the electricity it's from the the prongs rubbing the neck everytime the dogs neck swells during a bark.
***Edited By: gunny on 1/27/2006 2:32:43 PM*** Reason: d
perhaps you fail to realize dogs FEEL pain THAT IS a human feeling
... sounds like you should trade your pooches for a pet rock just my opinion but pain os a very real thing just because you didnt feel pain of the surgury does not mean poochie DIDNT i am not attacking; i just dont see how pain in dogs cannot be associated with human pain. pain hurts period. can you please explain what wou mean by the word i quoted from you thank you
***Edited By: mzpeekabooicu on 1/27/2006 2:59:59 PM*** Reason: fixed an error
Debarking, or devocalization, is an invasive surgical procedure that involves removing a large amount of laryngeal tissue. It involves a great deal of pain post-operatively. Because this procedure is superfluous and inherently cruel, many veterinarians condemn and refuse to perform it.
***Edited By: mzpeekabooicu on 1/27/2006 3:06:03 PM*** Reason: added info